Clermont Planning and Zoning Transcript 9/1/26

      
6:40 I call the September City of Clermont Planning and Zoning Commission meeting to order at 6:30 p.m. Will the clerk please call the role?
6:50 Commissioner Tidona present.
6:52 Commissioner May here. Commissioner Ensu presua, Commissioner Anne present, Commissioner Chair, I mean Commissioner
7:00 Kobe here, Commissioner Kramer here, and Commissioner Hoisington here.
7:06 Please stand as you are able for the pledge of allegiance.
7:12 I pledge algiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands. One nation
7:20 under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. You may be seated.
7:27 Thank you.
7:32 All right. Thank you everyone for being here tonight. Um, I'd like to make everyone aware. Um please turn on your microphones when you speak from the dis.
7:42 Um if you come up from the audience to speak the mic at the lect turn should already be on. Please speak clearly into the mic so people present and those
7:51 watching online can hear you as well. Um as a reminder this meeting is being
7:58 recorded and broadcast on the city's YouTube channel which is city of Clermont. Uh, commissioners, you should
8:08 have received a copy of the minutes from the previous month. Um, if there are no additions, corrections, or questions, I'll entertain a motion.
8:18 Um, I do have one uh correction page eight just on the top. It's just missing commissioner. It just says may asked if
8:25 this would be so it just needs a commissioner in front of me. That's it. Cool. Any other corrections?
8:36 Can I have a motion uh to approve with the made correction?
8:41 I'll set a motion with the adjustment to add any commissioner to page eight on the top before commissioners may name second.
8:52 All in favor?
8:54 I I that is unanimous. Uh we are now at the portion of the meeting um for reports
9:02 and I will start at the end with Commissioner Toadona. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9:11 Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, what I just wanted to bring to everyone's attention is um, so the
9:19 church that I go to, the gentleman who does the security, his name is, uh, Norman uh, Re. He is a retired NY New
9:28 York State police officer. um and he has taken upon himself to do a 9/11
9:35 remembrance tribute and exhibit uh throughout Florida. So this year uh from September 9th to the 12th, it's at
9:44 Winter Garden City Hall if anyone is interested. Um it is taking up three and a half days. He's got somewhere along
9:52 the lines of like 30 tables of memorabilia.
9:57 uh he always invites uh first responders, military, gold star families, and you know, the local
10:04 politicians as well. So again, if it's just something you think you can come by and attend, uh I am honored to be one of
10:11 his guides this year um for the 25th anniversary. So um there it is up in top. Uh again, if anybody is in the area
10:21 would like to stop in, it would be just an awesome event. So, thank you very much.
10:27 Thank you, Commissioner May.
10:31 Thank you. And uh thank you for that uh invitation. Seems something that I probably will be going and attending with my son. I appreciate
10:40 that. Um [clears throat] just in reports. Um wanted just to let everybody know uh the things that I've done uh through the month. Just attended and
10:48 watched the u citizen-led parking committee meetings. If anybody uh doesn't know that the C citizen le parking committee is being shown on
10:57 YouTube every Thursday and it's also open to the public and they're speaking actually they're meeting in regards to
11:03 the two possible sites uh for for garages. So if anybody's interested in that um you know it is open.
11:12 [clears throat] Um I attended the Panthers Round openhouse something all commissioners, councils and public should attend uh just to keep a watch
11:19 on. Um I believe today they they voted for the development to go forward.
11:25 That's going to add more um development uh in the county. So
11:32 us in the city should basically just keep a watch on it because you just never know. It could be a future annexation to our city. So um so that's
11:41 still TBD. Um I participated just want to let everybody know I participated in the second uh greenways and trails bike audit. uh I've been attending those um just to kind of help out.
11:53 [clears throat] Uh this time we looked at the northeast quadrant over by Emil Jan Johana Road and also Hook Street uh
12:01 just to look at possibilities on future connections um as well as Ray Goodman Parkway. So goal is to help map better
12:10 trail connections for the future. So, um I thank Valerie Shuitt who is the lead on that uh for the invitation. Um anyone
12:19 is who is interested can join the Clermont Greenways and Trails group. Uh just reach out to the admin which is Valerie Shuitt. She has a Facebook page.
12:27 You can just easily uh DM her. So, uh other than that, that is my reports. Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner Ensuro.
12:34 Thank you, Chair. Um only two quick notes. Um and this is more so for down the line. Um, Commissioner Teddon
12:42 actually reminded me of it, but the city of Clermont is doing their 9/11 um, memorial service um, on the Friday the
12:49 11th and I believe it's at 10:00 at the Arts and Rec Center. Um, and then also they have Sips and Salsa on the 19th as
12:56 well. So definitely two um, important events in our city. Um, and would love to see folks out there. That is all of my report.
13:03 Thank you, Commissioner Neck.
13:05 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh hello everybody. I'd like to bring to your attention why your vote counts.
13:13 Your vote is the voice. Soldiers have sacrificed their lives defending their freedoms that include your right to
13:20 vote. Honor their sacrifice, making your voice heard. Your votes help choose leaders and shape decisions that affect
13:29 your community and your future. Every vote matters, everyone. So don't think that you're the only person one votes
13:36 not going to matter. It does. Our votes can make a difference. Join us on September 14th from 6:00 to 8:00 right
13:45 across the street at the Clermont City Center. All right. It's called the connect connects meet the candidates forum.
13:54 This community event is an opportunity to hear directly from the candidates running for seat three, which is the mayor's seat, and also seat number five.
14:04 Come here, what the candidates stand for. Learn about their visions, their ideas, and how they would benefit Clermont. And become an informed voter.
14:13 Your vote is your voice. Be informed, be engaged, and make it count. And that's it for my reports. Thank you very much.
14:23 Thank you, Commissioner Kramer.
14:25 I have nothing to report tonight. Thank you, Commissioner Hoisington.
14:29 Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, just briefly, I am also a member of the green waste committee, although I missed the bike rides.
14:37 But I, um, the work that we're doing and the recommendations that will be brought back to the city, I think, are going to
14:43 be um, extremely important for safety for those who like to ride bikes and how
14:51 to connect the city. So, um, as as my colleague said, you're welcome to attend those meetings. Um, thank you for
14:58 mentioning the right to vote and how everyone should exercise your voice, whether you're doing it in person or mail in your vote matters.
15:10 Please, please, asking everyone to take the time to make their voice known. Um,
15:16 I attended the leadership um at the chamber breakfast. That was very informative. Thank you for that.
15:25 That was very informative. And then today I attended lunch with the mayor. Um, and that was very informative.
15:32 There's a good crowd there. Some good questions and dialogue. And I would encourage everyone that has the time
15:39 when each one of our council members has a day, an hour, a location where you can actually sit down and talk to them and
15:46 listen to see what's going on in the city and participate and just get to know who your elected officials are that you take the time to go to the whether
15:53 it's breakfast. I think um Councilman Peter says a bagel breakfast or something, but whatever it is, check the
16:01 website. I think it's critical that as a citizen of Clermont, as a taxpayer, that you find out what your elected
16:09 officials are talking about. Let them educate you on what's going on with the city. And that's all I have.
16:15 All right. Thank you very much. And I also attended the the Panther Run event.
16:18 I I thought it was great that there was a reception for that. There were maps and and people were able to ask questions. So, um it was it was great to get that information from a developer.
16:28 Okay. Okay, before we move into unfinished and new business, uh just a couple quick things. Um reminding
16:34 commissioners to report any disclosures to be transparent to the public. We should disclose any exparte communication, written or verbal or
16:43 commissioner investigations, site visits, expert opinions as we um address the items this evening. So, thank you
16:51 for that. Uh just our proceedings tonight. Um we will hear from staff. We will then hear from the applicant. We
16:59 will then take any public comments and then we will have discussion and action by the commission. So we will start with item number one.
17:13 Good evening planning and zoning commissioners and guests. John Cruz, Development Services.
17:24 Again, this is agenda item number one.
17:26 Gates funeral parlor conditional use permit.
17:30 The applicant, Ever Gates, is requesting a conditional use permit to establish a funeral home in the C2 general commercial zoning district under section
17:39 125-337A1 of the land development code. Funeral homes are a conditional use within the C2 general commercial zoning district.
17:49 The property is located at 2205 Cluster Oak Drive and currently has one single
17:55 building approximately 49 uh 4,900 square ft with 25 parking spaces and
18:02 existing landscaping. And outlined on the display in yellow is the property in question. Here's US 27 Clustro Drive.
18:12 And again, here is a zoomed in area of the property.
18:22 The building consists of four suites, an existing beauty salon, tangled salon, and spa, which occupies two suites,
18:30 which fronts US 27. And this is the outline of the building. And these are the two suites here. And again, here's US 27.
18:39 And uh there is an existing office for Gates Funeral Home, which is the office use only. And that is actually here in
18:47 the building which is in the rear of the building where funeral arrangements are made with services conducted across the
18:54 street at one in Christ Ministries Church 2220 Cluster Oak Drive.
19:11 Now on the display is the the floor plan. The adjoining vacant suite was previously used for physical therapy
19:18 office and that's what this shows just a wide open room. The applicant is requesting to expand into the vacant
19:25 suite to offer funeral parlor services for non-Christians that do not desire a church setting.
19:32 The proposed floor plan for the funeral service area in the expansion area depicts 70 seats. And again, this is the
19:39 existing uh Gates funeral office and they're expanding into this suite. And this is the 70 chairs that were mentioned.
19:50 Based upon the capacity of the existing office area and the expansion of the funeral service area, the maximum number of people occupying both suites will be
19:58 set uh be 90 people. The minimum required parking based upon the square footage of the building is 25 spaces.
20:06 The funeral parlor suite will be parked at a ratio of one space for every four seats. This would require 18 spaces for
20:13 the 70 seats in the parlor area along with seven spaces for the office area which is a 1 to200 ratio. The total
20:21 spaces required is 25 spaces. With this expansion, parking was an initial concern since the existing beauty salon
20:28 would also require parking which is not accounted for. And this is conveyed to the applicant in the beginning of the discussion.
20:37 The applicant has provided a parking plan which was in your packet
20:45 to address the parking shortage. A parking lot use authorization letter from the property owner across the street at 2220 Cluster Oak Drive will
20:54 allow the parking lot to be used for overflow parking associated with the funeral service. In addition, the owner,
21:01 which also is the owner of the 2205 Cluster Oak Drive property, which we're discussing tonight, has agreed to address any matters related to this to be directly rectified by himself, Mr.
21:13 Gates, and the respected tenants.
21:16 In addition, letters of support have also been supplied by the beauty salon tenant and a tenant at 2220 Cluster Oak Drive.
21:27 And that is the letter by the owner of the Tangled Salon and Spa.
21:35 And this one is for Musco Lighting over at 2220 Cluster Oak.
21:47 A condition has been added to require a staff member to assist with parking at the facility and on on the adjoining
21:54 lot. If parking does become an issue, the applicant understands and agrees that the city may require additional parking or resend the CUP.
22:03 The applicant has indicated that business hours will be from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Monday through Saturday. The facility will be used for viewing
22:11 purposes, consultation, notary, and any other funeral related business with no inbombing, dressing of descendant or
22:20 cremation at the site. In addition, no storage of human remains will be on site. And inside your packet, there was
22:28 backup showing uh places of storage and cremation um that provides those services. These will all be done at
22:36 another licensed facility. A state of Florida licensed funeral director will be in charge of this establishment and is also a condition of the conditional use permit.
22:46 Staff has reviewed the application has evidence that the proposed use will not be detrimental to the health, safety, or general welfare. A person's residing or
22:55 working in the vicinity in the proposed use will comply with the regulations and conditions specified. The parking lot
23:02 use authorization on the adjacent site is critical to stay in place in order for the funeral parlor to operate. If
23:09 this is revoked or modified, then the use may be detrimental to the adjoining businesses. However, conditions have been placed in the conditional use
23:17 permit to address this issue. Staff recommends approval of the request of a funeral parlor in the C2 general commercial zoning district with the
23:26 conditions contained in resolution 2026-029R. That concludes staff's presentation.
23:33 All right. Thank you very much. At this time, we would like to hear from the applicant.
23:42 Good evening. My name is Everett Gates and I was here to just answer any questions that you may have in reference to the proposed for uh the my funeral parlor.
23:53 All right.
23:54 Thank you very much. We uh may have some some questions uh for you after. Okay. Sure.
24:01 Okay. Thank you so much. And uh now's the portion of the meeting for public hearing on item agenda number one. Um,
24:10 so if there's anybody from the audience who would like to come up and speak, uh, now is the time to do it. Is there anyone who would like to come up and speak on this matter?
24:27 Anyone? Twice. All right. Final call for speakers.
24:35 [clears throat]
24:39 Okay, seeing no one uh wanting to speak on this, um we will close the public hearing um portion of the meeting and we
24:47 will bring it back to our commission. Um we will start with uh Commissioner Neim.
24:56 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Mr. Gates, if you don't mind, sir, I have a few questions. Yes, sir. Okay. So, you're leasing the property.
25:04 How long is your lease for? How long is the lease for? Uh, five years.
25:10 Okay. And this will not violate your lease at all. Correct. Say that again. I'm sorry.
25:14 This this move of the cup would not be violating your lease at all. Correct. No, sir. No, sir. Excellent. Excellent.
25:23 Okay. Uh, since there's no embombing on site.
25:29 Correct. Okay. That's going to be coming according to the packet. For the record, it's going to be coming, the deceased is going to be coming from Orlando.
25:38 Correct.
25:39 Now, I noticed in the packet uh when planning and zoning read it back to me, I noticed it says no dressing of the deceit.
25:48 Okay? Now, you know, it's going to sound like I have no sympathy for the dead, but I'm going to be honest with you.
25:53 When you transport a deceased body, it's going to move. It's going to rock.
25:58 It's going to roll. Especially come from Orlando.
26:01 So, is going to be it's hard. It's real.
26:07 This is really hard. Uh will you be touching up like any portions of the body? Cuz that's
26:15 considered dressing. That's why I don't know if you want to take that out.
26:19 No sir, we won't be doing anything to the body. When the body comes to the funeral home or the church, they will already be dressed, casketed, already
26:27 made up, and everywhere. Just ready for the viewing. Okay. All right. As is takes care of that.
26:35 There'll be no overnight. It's only going to be one day, one day only. Or is it going to be like a two-day? You're not going to have a two-day event?
26:41 Well, if they have for Friday night viewing, we will go back to Orlando and then back for Saturday service if they decide to have two services. Is that what you're asking?
26:50 Okay. Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Thank you for that. Yes, sir.
26:53 Okay. And uh cuz you have no refri refrigeration on site, correct?
26:57 Correct. My refrigeration is in winter guard cuz you know this is Florida. [laughter] Yes. Okay. Yes.
27:03 Uh okay. Uh so far he's sounding good except for one simple part.
27:10 Okay. Okay. Uh I've been to your property. I'm allowed to go to your property. I'm allowed to see physically your property. I've been to your
27:18 property two days in a row because I couldn't believe what I saw. I took some pictures and I handed it to our planning and zoning department and if they could
27:26 show them one at a time so this way the audience and my fellow commissioners can see. Okay,
27:37 first picture is the spa and the nail salon. I count three cars. Next picture, please sir.
27:46 Next picture is a different angle on it.
27:49 From the spa all the way down to where that white SUV in the other car, that's a total of 10 cars.
27:56 Then if you can sir to the next picture from the street itself, I count five more additional cars. The white one on
28:05 the left, the silver one next to it, the white SUV, a limousine, and the Hurst. If you could take to the
28:14 next one. Now, the Hurst and the limousine were parked in that same spot two days in a row. I noticed that the
28:22 limousine is parked in a handicap. Does it have handicap registration plates that he could park in a handicap area?
28:30 No.
28:31 The only reason that limousine is there because it's been raining for a few days. So, it's under that tree and so I moved it from under the tree just for that purpose.
28:42 But that's I'm sorry it's hard to hear you for some reason. I can't hear that.
28:47 I think I heard what you said. I'm sorry. So, you're parked in an handicap spot right now and it's not supposed to be there.
28:57 Okay. Because on your location, I believe you only have two. One in front of the nail salon and one in front of your establishment. Okay.
29:06 See the problem I have with this. Okay.
29:10 I count 15 And that was random days. 15 minus 25 is 10.
29:17 Okay. I had a lot of applicants in the six years that I set up here come to me and ask me, could you approve this?
29:25 And I said, I cannot because you don't have sufficient amount of parking.
29:30 And I understand, oh, they could go across the street for that. This is your location. I do have to disclose that I
29:39 did meet with planning and zoning yesterday. Planning and zoning told me they told you it was going to get denied because you didn't have sufficient
29:46 parking. And then you said, "Well, we could use the church's property." That's two separate parcels. Even though it's
29:53 the same owner, it's two separate parcels.
29:57 Okay. You have a business running in the front. Correct. You saw all those cars there by that business. You have a viewing. it might hurt their business.
30:07 That's why there's to me it's important for the parking. So my question to you, not a statement,
30:15 is do you think it's right that you take up the whole parking lot from your so-called tenants for their business?
30:24 Well, I'm not taking up all of their parking. We share the parking spaces and I'm the pastor across the street. So if
30:33 there is overflow parking, they can park there. We have two locations for them to park. The the the hair salon when she
30:42 has overflow, they use the parking. We share the parking. They use the parking across the street as well. Her employees
30:50 use the parking lot across the street every day. Every single day they use the parking lot across the street at the church to provide parking for her
30:59 clients. And I have I don't have a problem with that.
31:01 Okay. Well, I'm I must have missed it because when I was there two days in a row, your parking lot, the church was empty. So, the staff must have parked in
31:08 the parking lot for that last picture you saw. Uh my final question is you're basically having a viewing. Okay.
31:19 And I understand that. So, from the viewing, it's going to either cremation, cemetery, or back to Orlando.
31:28 So let's say it's going to the cemetery for burial. Okay. Will you having will
31:34 you will you have like a recessional of vehicles with you if the family chooses that? Yes.
31:44 Okay. And since Highway 2, State Road 27, no highway 27, I was right the first time and State Road 50.
31:57 If up to my beliefs, PD cannot escort you on major highways.
32:05 So, who would be out there directing traffic on 27?
32:10 They have to come. We don't take 27. We usually take uh to Lakeshore. We we take Brogden to Lakeshore and then come out.
32:17 Great answer. Great answer. Thank you. That was my concern with the traffic.
32:21 Yes. But unfortunately, I cannot approve this due to the fact because you have limited amount of parking. I'm sorry, sir. I think it might be a great idea,
32:30 but it's too small of an area to have 70. I count 90 alto together. I just found out
32:37 90 that it's 90 people altogether and you only got 25 parking spots. You got 55 across the street. 25 plus 55 comes out to be 80.
32:49 Okay. So, I'm I'm just trying to get into my head to find a medium where, you
32:57 know, we could work with each other. But that's a lot of people. That's a lot of seats. Uh I'm That's all the questions I have for now.
33:05 All right. Thank you very much, Commissioner Ensur.
33:08 Thank you, Chair. Um I think I can work with this. I think Vinnie brings up some very, very good
33:15 concerns. Um, but the fact that you have support from neighbors around you,
33:23 if I can ask, I guess my what my one of one of my questions is in terms of the parking for the church, um, obviously on Sundays it's that's the fullest, but if
33:32 you could estimate during the week, how full in comparison to the open and closing hours of the funeral
33:41 home, how full does your parking lot get? I guess in comparison to the adjacent adjacentness of the funeral
33:49 home, the church parking lot. Yes. During the week. Yeah.
33:54 We don't we don't have So you don't have Wednesday services or anything?
33:57 Wednesday night services, but it's usually like 10 to 15 cars max. Okay. Yes.
34:01 Gotcha. Okay. No, I was just curious on that in terms of, you know, what it looks like during the week. Um, yeah, I I completely understand the heartburn in
34:10 terms of those parking spaces, but the fact that you have that quote unquote overflow parking, um, gives me a little bit of a better
34:19 feeling on that. Um, and that's the only question that that's the only real question I had in terms of that that overflow parking. So, that's all.
34:27 Thank you, Commissioner May.
34:32 I appreciate uh Commissioner Nemix bringing up the parking because that was one of the issues that uh I had. He brought up some interesting points
34:41 though that I didn't um think about which were interesting and so I'm adding that to um
34:50 some of the questions that I'll be asking you. So um I know the parking is based on and it's
34:57 probably for staff. So just it's for it's this is going to be a staff question because this is more based on code.
35:05 Okay.
35:06 So the park the existing building is 4,950 ft. There is no additional square footage that he's adding
35:15 to the existing building. So the existing building is 4,950 ft. So based on code and what I see here on the package and by the way, thank you very
35:23 much for the package. Well done. I mean a lot of good information in here that was used. Um, based on the on on the
35:31 code, it says one space per four seats. Correct.
35:37 That is correct. When we look at seating arrangements for funeral homes, churches, stuff like that.
35:44 Okay. So based on that, we're looking at 70 seats, which actually is more like 89
35:51 cuz I I counted um all the seats which included the chapel and the offices and the conference room. It we have 89
36:00 seats. So that includes I guess for the visitors and the existing staff.
36:05 Way to go. So based on 89 uh if you divide that by the 25
36:12 parking spaces, well if you divide that by the four uh it comes out to 22.25.
36:19 So if you round that up to 23 parking spaces that leaves only two and we're sharing
36:26 space. So, the question that was not answered or wasn't provided and I know there was a letter from the salon
36:35 um and the salon did state we have never I think that no this is
36:43 Musco lighting it's the first one here I hear uh
36:52 page 30 is it page 30 thank you thank Okay.
36:57 They wanted to Yeah, there was uh the parking attendants help direct and organize vehicles ensures that adequate parking remains available for my staff
37:04 and clients. However, what I don't know is how many um
37:11 staff and seats that the salon has for me to determine if the parking is
37:18 adequate. And I understand that you're you're going to be using overflow parking, but I need to know exactly how
37:26 many based on the salon's usage and the gates usage because we're saying right
37:33 now that there's 22. They're going to be using 22 and a half. So that means that the salon will only be using two with
37:42 whatever is left over, right? So we don't know what the salon needs um on that. So, that's um some
37:51 questionable on that because I I didn't pick that up until until Commissioner Neim had brought up the pictures about the salon and it seemed like it was a
37:59 pretty full place. Um I understand there's going to be overflow parking. I understand that he's
38:07 going to be using that. And how much overflow parking is available across the street? That's the question I have.
38:15 How many spots across the street? Correct. I believe 41. 40.
38:23 I think 41. All right. So, we have 25. Yeah.
38:28 We have 25 at the existing May. Yes, I may. I'm not interrupting you, Mr. Chairman. I'm sorry.
38:35 [clears throat]
38:35 I would like to just It's in the packet. I believe you have 55 spots. So, 55. 55. Okay. 55. Okay. Thank you.
38:42 Okay. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. So 25 for the salon slash funeral home and then 55 for church. Okay.
38:54 So we are in need for you all. So that helps with the
39:02 overflow. There's enough there um for that. Now, going back to your services at the church, you're saying on
39:10 Wednesdays you have 15 cars in the evening.
39:14 In the evening for Bible study. And what about for the regular service? Are you a Saturday or a Sunday service? Sunday service. A Sunday service. Sunday service.
39:21 Okay. And how is that a full house there on Sunday? On Sundays. Uhhuh. Yes.
39:25 Okay. So then those 55 cars, correct? 55 sorry parking spaces are are are used up
39:34 but their hours of operations start to we're not using it on Sundays we use I understand that I was going to go back to that
39:44 but thank you um because I wanted to make sure I put that on record. Yes. So
39:50 your hours of operations are there's a lot of information here so this is I have to find it. Oh yes right
39:57 here. So, Monday through Saturday from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Yes, ma'am. Okay. So, Sunday it's free. 55. Okay.
40:06 So, we got 55 plus the 25 um for 89 seats. Now, in regards to your
40:16 services, do you usually get a full house or do you have more than the 89 or more than 90? You know, so far we have not.
40:25 Nothing. No.
40:26 Okay. Can I can I interrupt for one second? Can I ask just for the record?
40:30 Um I guess the average from your own information, your own thoughts, what is the average number of folks that you would have for a service or viewing like at the funeral home?
40:39 You say how many people normally have an average?
40:41 Like an average for a service or just the viewing whatever services the funeral home.
40:49 Okay. For service usually average about 30 so far about 30 to 45 people somewhere around in there. Yeah.
40:55 Sorry. No, it's okay. And I appreciate the commissioners jumping in because it helps. It's it helps speeds up and it helps um because I know I think they
41:03 know where I'm going with on some of these questions. So, I appreciate it.
41:05 That's not an issue for me. Um I I see that there is a condition that we added on there for the location of
41:13 the overflow parking. The question is, and I think was added, you will have a staff person, correct?
41:19 That will manage the manage the flow. Are you all gonna be putting cones down just for safety issues because of the since it is a a street that people use?
41:29 I have cones and I have the sides that have the arrows pointing towards the thing. Okay, perfect. And then
41:38 the question that I have which we don't see a support letter from is the mortgage company. I believe that's to
41:45 the south. Is there entrance and um entrance and exit on the south side onto cluster?
41:55 Do we know? Is there anybody here from It says Southern Insurance on our aerial here.
42:01 So the only the only letters that we received were from the salon from the church and from Musco Lighting.
42:14 Correct. So where is Musco lighting on that map? Musco is on unit H on the very end.
42:21 So can you show me on that? Sorry on that map. So just point here. You got to point down here. Oh, okay. Down here. Musco is here. Okay.
42:29 You got a point on the paper. All right. So So So you're south. You see I'm sorry. I see the church. That's the church. That's the church. That's the church. Okay.
42:38 So then did we get a letter or did they want to participate? uh the people from the southern insurance or mortgage I was I'm asking staff did they provide a
42:46 support letter because they would I believe be affected with the the traffic or the parking they our our standard uh mail out went
42:55 out 500 ft from the property owners. We didn't hear any any feedback from them.
43:02 Um and again the parking plan is what was produced by Mr. gates and offered to us to look at. And we were mainly
43:09 concerned with the tenants within the property boundaries, which would be this piece and this piece. They have their own separate parking lot and entrance.
43:19 So, we didn't take that in account, but again, they were part of the notification record that was mailed out.
43:26 Yes. John, and I'm not I don't go down the street very well and I don't know if anybody else can jump in in regards to Cluster Oak.
43:35 Um, if the mortgage company would say for instance it was packed and there was people crossing and there was, you know, uh, a lot of people there, would they be
43:43 able to leave their their property and go, I guess, down to Brogden Drive and then get off on US 27? They wouldn't be obstructed.
43:52 I Yes, they would be, but they're not in that office. Oh, okay. They're not there. They're never there. They're never there. They just have an office.
43:59 They just have an office. It's always locked. They're not there. So, they have they have a sound that door. Please call this number. Oh, you have They're not in the office. Okay. Yes, ma'am.
44:07 Perfect. But I see that there's even if they were there, it seems like they can go the opposite way and go to um Brogden Drive into US 27. Okay.
44:16 Um I think that's all for me and I appreciate again the commissioners for jumping in. Thank you. Bye-bye.
44:23 Commissioner Commissioner Teddona.
44:26 Mr. Chair, honestly, all my questions have been answered so far. So, okay, if you could keep going.
44:33 All right, we'll come back and have a second chance if anybody else develops any more questions. Uh, Commissioner Hoisington. [clears throat]
44:40 Mr. Chair, all of my questions have been asked as well.
44:44 Mr. Kramer, thank you, Chair. Um, I'm pretty good except I actually
44:54 I found something. I'm Christian, you're on the line, right? I am. Excellent. Because this one's for you.
45:02 So, um, and actually it's weird because it kind of ties into the second thing we're going to talk about tonight as the commission. So, um, I want to clarify
45:11 something because when I was going through this, you guys are citing or let me go back to the page.
45:21 staff's report that on page 12 staff report it says
45:28 I want to clarify this resolution 2026-029R sites section 86-144D
45:37 as a source for the cup criteria but the ordinance that we're discussing tonight identifies those criteria under section 101 1-212C.
45:53 So is 861. And the reason I asked this is um back in April the Emanuel Temple resolution 2026-007R
46:03 we cited 101-212 for those same cut findings. But in this one we're citing 86-144.
46:14 And I'm sorry it's on page 14. it's under the resolution itself. Whereas from evidence presented to the public hearing and after consideration of the
46:22 factors set forth in section 86-1-144 um
46:29 but we've used 101-212C in the past and we're also discussing that later tonight. So can you clarify
46:37 that why we're using I don't know if I can. I mean, I can tell you that certainly when we deal
46:45 with a cup, it's 101-212, right?
46:49 Um, I don't think we have, unless I'm mistaken, I don't think we
46:57 have a chapter anything in the 80s in our code.
47:00 Okay. So, we need to make a correction to this resolution then before we move forward because we're citing on page 14, section 86-144.
47:09 And then later tonight, we're also discussing discussing 101-212 for the same four cup findings.
47:18 So, is that something we need to correct before it goes to council?
47:23 I see I see it. I see it. I I believe this is probably just a scrivener's error from some old
47:31 from some old version of the code. If you are so inclined to pass the resolution, then I would just add that
47:40 the motion include a change of that to section 101-2. Okay.
47:47 Um, thank you, Christian. I appreciate your your you answering that.
47:53 It it caught my eye because we've talked about it in the past. Um, no other questions, chair.
48:01 Okay. And all my questions have been answered. And uh that was a good find, Mr. Kramer. Um I'd like to um open it
48:10 back up. Is anybody else have any any follow-up questions? I got it.
48:15 If you uh Commissioner May, would you want me to go first or go ahead?
48:21 Yes. Uh number one, I did forget to disclose that I did speak to a local funeral parlor to pretty much find out
48:29 the way of the land. This is brand new for me. So, I just want to know the procedures of transporting a body and so on.
48:36 I was going to say you were very knowledgeable about it. I didn't know if you had done some work or anything.
48:41 New York, we went attended a lot of funerals.
48:45 Uh, unfortunately, uh, and you know, we I'm sorry, maybe you might not have a
48:53 big showing, but all the funerals that I attended, there was standing room only and lines were around the block. All right. So, that's I'm sorry. That's what
49:01 I was envision envisioning it and that's why I wanted to find out what their viewings are. Ex. Great question that
49:09 Commissioner May asked. Uh, what is your average? And according to the funeral
49:14 home, they said it varies a lot from 10 all the way to a packed room. So, it all
49:22 depends on the individual. So, that's out the door. All right. Uh, we won't know. We do we have a a an amount of
49:31 staff in the electrical in that electric part of the building that's attached to the church. I did
49:40 forget to ask that question. I should have called you for that.
49:42 Can you can you repeat the question? I'm trying to understand.
49:46 On the on the south side of the church building.
49:50 Okay. There's uh the electrical I believe it's called the lighting building. the lighting company, the the office for Musco.
49:59 Yeah, Musco. Do we have an amount of staff members that are there?
50:04 Uh, I do not know the staff numbers there, but when these buildings were built, they were built one parking space
50:11 to 200 square ft of office use. So, okay, that's that that helps that answers my question.
50:19 Uh, back to Mr. Drake. I'm trying to find a medium point, Mr. Gates, between us. Okay.
50:33 And I do apologize for that. I, for some reason, time for a new phone because
50:40 Okay. Uh, is there any way because the parking is a big thing with me. Is there any way you could have smaller amount of
50:49 audience for the viewing? Because right now you got 70. Okay. Is there any way we could we negotiate? Can we work out
50:57 that you'll have a smaller viewing so this way it' be less cars and traffic on the road? That's the way I'm looking
51:05 at it. I'm sorry. I'm trying to work with you.
51:08 Yes, I appreciate that, sir. that based on what like you said earlier based off case by case
51:15 services are always um mentioned to families that about the parking. So the families when they come to the funeral
51:22 home they are aware of the parking when they chose Gates funeral home but the funeral the parking across the street is
51:29 all always giving them permission to use it.
51:34 Right. So my initial question was are you going right now you have 70 seats in the viewing area. Are you willing to to go to
51:43 you tell me well what's it's your business. I don't want to interfere with your business but you know that um it seems like the parking that I currently have is adequate for the 90.
51:56 It because I have 55 plus the across the street. So why wouldn't that be I'm just asking out. Well, no. You you're
52:03 entitled to ask me a question and you're the applicant and I'll be more than happy freely to let you know. I've denied a lot of projects that came
52:11 across my desk because one parcel. Now, I understand for example, you have your church that's that's two separate
52:19 parcels. Two. Okay. Uh for example, there was one with food trucks. The reason why it was denied was because
52:27 there was no place to park. there was 10 spots and they said, "Oh, we could park in this shopping center and that that that wasn't satisfactory with me." All
52:36 right. It's because yes, you will have an attendant, but crossing the road and I just I'm still
52:45 just If you could bring it down a little bit. May I ask a question?
52:49 Yes, please do. several city council meetings when they are packed and people park across the street and walk across this street to get to this building.
52:59 Right. I agree. But that's not a business. It's not a business. This is a business.
53:05 You're asking us to change the resolution and [clears throat] you're putting uh a very large to me 70 seats in there plus
53:14 an additional 20. So that's a lot lot of seats. Okay. That's that's that's I can't I I've been voting like this for
53:23 the past six years. I really wish you could find something so I could change my vote for you. I really do. You you seem very sincere and it's a good
53:30 project. It's just rules of rules and I hate saying it like that. It really understand 50 I'm trying to but I'm I don't know
53:39 about the parking part in terms of is 50 will accommodate that this 50 something divided into 50 is what
53:46 is that one person I'm trying to understand.
53:53 Yeah I would you know what uh I would like to ask my fellow commissioners if they're okay with that.
54:01 I am.
54:04 So, just as an example, when my mom passed, uh, at the time, we went to, uh, Clermont Funeral Home off of, uh, Mohawk.
54:13 Yes. And, um, it was view only. Um, but with
54:21 all due respect, that gentleman was very specific that his room only held 30 people.
54:28 Okay.
54:29 So, I mean, mom didn't know that many people down here, so it wasn't a problem, but he was again, he was very, very specific that that's all he could hold.
54:39 Okay.
54:39 That was the maximum that he could hold in there, if that helps.
54:44 Yes, sir. Thank you. That does help me, Miss May. Commissioner May, I'm sorry.
54:51 No, there was no interruption whatsoever. Thank you. You're again bringing very good points. So, my question again is to staff because I'm
54:59 concerned about the salon. I don't know how many uh I've been to that salon before, so I'm trying to remember how many seats or how many chairs that place
55:08 has. Um, so I just I know that they're okay with it now, but once you have the 70 people,
55:17 it might become a problem. Um, so I don't know if there is a ratio of how
55:24 many the salon can have versus a ratio of what the um the funeral home could have. And and
55:33 just because I've been to places where they have reserved parking where the salon can have their reserved parking so
55:41 that that the funeral the guests from the funeral home won't disturb that parking for them. But they have a lot of
55:48 chairs in that salon. Um, so you know, will the funeral home also accommodate
55:55 the salon guests as well? You know, I'm assuming you probably would, but it's just it's a lot of parking. You know,
56:02 that's a lot. It's a lot of people for that little space even though we have the 50 across the or 55, sorry, across the street.
56:09 So, to address the question about reserving spots, it's private property and we don't get involved with that.
56:15 Okay. Okay. Um, and we get asked that question quite a bit, but when it becomes private, uh, that is one of the
56:22 reasons why it was critical for us to take a look that it came from the property owner, not a tenant, uh, that
56:30 they would resolve any issues between the tenants. So, that was one of the reasons. And then in terms of uh if you
56:37 look at the parking requirements for the funeral home, it's one per four seats, but then we did the parking for the
56:46 office separate. So counting all the seats is not really the ideal way to
56:52 compress it and look at the numbers. Um, in terms of the the hair salon, based on
57:00 the approximate square footage, again, that building was built at one to 200 square feet for use. Um, I'm estimating
57:09 based on just portions of the floor plan and the overall building size, it's probably 2,000 square feet. So, you're
57:16 looking at roughly 10 spots for the the beauty salon.
57:22 But again, I don't know if they have what their high hours of service and those types of things, but again, it
57:30 went down to the letters that were provided, especially from Christie from the Tangled Salon.
57:37 That does work.
57:40 Yeah. No, thank you very much. And uh yeah, I calculated 2,178 ft for the um for the salon. Um, and then we do have
57:49 enough handicap parking now that we are increasing the number of um
57:56 cuz I know we're looking at the handicap parking be based on square footage of the building, but now that we're increasing the number of visitors, do we have enough handicap parking now?
58:08 So, the way the handicap parking again is set up by the code, it's one for every 25 spaces. So, they're required to
58:17 have um honestly one, but they have two.
58:24 They have two there. And then whatever's across the road. Again, that's something that um it's private property. They have
58:31 the minimum, so we can't dictate the change.
58:36 Thank you, John, for um all the clarity in regards to the code and all that. Um,
58:45 I think I don't have any any further questions. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have I don't know if it's a
58:52 question or a comment. Um, listening to the discussion from my fellow commissioners, um, I've had the same concern when I read this about parking, the number of parking spaces.
59:02 My question to the owner is even though you've gotten the approval from the other businesses saying that they don't mind,
59:10 is it possible knowing that a salon business fluctuates there? She may have days where she has an overflow of
59:18 customers. You may have a service going on where you have an overflow. We know how funerals go depending on the the the the loved of the deceased. Yes.
59:28 You may have 90 to 100 to 200. They ro they rotate in and out.
59:33 Is it possible that you could have an agreement with the salon owner or other businesses that during that time you
59:42 will guarantee ensure that they would have adequate parking space that it doesn't impede their business? Yes, ma'am.
59:50 And because you're coming in with additional people, then they would use the overflow.
59:54 Yes, ma'am. Uh yes. Excellent. Excellent point. And I have met with Christie uh who owns the Tangle Spa and normally I
1:00:04 try to work around her clients because she tells me what her busiest days are.
1:00:09 So for the past I have worked around the schedule not to try to have a service around what she told me her busiest days are. Okay.
1:00:16 Yes. But we do I can go with that. Um because I would hate to say that, you know, that you would impede her business
1:00:24 and then her livelihood is impacted, her customers are discouraged and they decide, well, we're not coming back to you anymore because we always run into this problem. So, as long as something
1:00:32 like that could be worked out, Yes, ma'am. I can support. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. Um, any other questions?
1:00:40 Last call for questions. All right. At this time, I will entertain a motion. I would like to enter a motion of approval
1:00:49 with the conditions that the language get changed in the
1:00:55 resolution. Exactly what Commissioner Hoston said about providing
1:01:03 adequate parking for your fellow tenant in the nail salon or whoever that tenant might be in the future. Also, I like to
1:01:12 add maximum viewing is 50. I calculated it. It comes out just barely enough.
1:01:22 Okay. And the reason why I say that, sir, it's because Commissioner Hinston hit the nail on the
1:01:29 head. People don't stay for the whole viewing. They come and they go. And that was my main concern with the safety of
1:01:37 traffic coming and going. I drove that road two days in a row. I know how tiny it is and it's very You can't do a
1:01:46 U-turn in a parking lot. You can't even barely do a broken K Uturn in the parking lot. So, with cars there, it's going to be like backing up and I don't
1:01:54 want any disasters, especially in the grievance of these drivers. So, that would be my motion. Did I interrupt it by making a comment in it, Mr. Chairman?
1:02:06 No, I think you're clear. Is is that okay, Paula, for to meet your needs, Commissioner Teddona, to meet your needs? Is that okay as well?
1:02:16 Um, we had a good soft spot.
1:02:18 I I think I think there was there was also another another correction that was pointed out by uh Commissioner Kramer. Oh, I'm sorry, Mr.
1:02:25 You need to also add approval with the correction changing wording from 86-144D
1:02:35 to now state section 101-212.
1:02:40 So, it's just changing um where the where the language is coming from. Do we have that?
1:02:48 You got that? Do you want me to repeat it? Cuz I mean, I wrote it down. 86-144B to eliminate that to 101-212.
1:03:00 I'm paying attention. I'm learning with you. I got you. That was a good call, by the way. Very good call. All right.
1:03:06 That's my motion. I'm looking for a second. And I will second that motion.
1:03:09 All right. We have a motion and a second. Any discussion? All in favor? I. I.
1:03:17 And the chair votes I. I believe that's unanimous.
1:03:20 Mr. Gates. I want to say I wish all my applicants was easy to work with like you. Thank you.
1:03:26 You made it very hard for me on this decision. Good luck. I'm sorry to speak out. Thank you. Thank you.
1:03:34 All right. We will move on to item number two. And I believe our attorney Christian, I believe this is you.
1:03:44 It is. And um can you all hear me? We can.
1:03:48 Yes, sir. I I apologize for not being there. I'm I'm in a week-l long jury trial in scenic Pulk County.
1:03:57 Um so anyways, I uh I didn't want this to fall off the radar. This is something
1:04:04 that was brought up by both the city council and you. And I think at our last
1:04:12 discussion, basically where we left it is I I told you some of the things I was thinking. One of them was in our
1:04:19 conditional use permit section. I feel like there's a lot of subjectivity.
1:04:24 I'd like to make it more objective if I can. And I I gave you some ideas of how we could do that. And you have in your
1:04:33 packet a red line, not a red line, but a strikethrough version of some of the things that I had
1:04:39 thought about. So for example um in section C4 I I was saying we should eliminate it
1:04:49 because the proposed use may be considered desirable at a particular location is completely ambiguous and
1:04:56 subjective. Um, but in your consideration of whether or not it's detrimental to the health, safety, or
1:05:03 general welfare in subsection C2, I thought you should still be able to consider all the things pretty much in
1:05:11 subsection D. And I started trying to clean it up. You know, in subsection D sub one, it basically says that the
1:05:20 density, intensity, character will be in conformity with the comp plan. Well, if we already say it has to be consistent with the comp plan and your land
1:05:28 development code, then I I don't need to say it again. Um, so you see other changes. Um, another concern I have is
1:05:37 that in your site planning provision, we always we do look at site planning. Um,
1:05:45 but this isn't really giving you guidance on how to gauge whether the site plan is good, bad, or ugly because
1:05:53 all it says is the development shall be planned and designed to consider. And so if it considers the orientation of
1:06:01 units, if it considers the effectiveness of plotting or building layout, if it considers environmentally sensitive areas,
1:06:10 you don't really have any way to argue about it, right? So I think that needs to be rewarded to say something about to
1:06:18 give you discretion to give you more discretion if that makes sense. But more than that, I don't want to subject or
1:06:26 substitute my judgment for yours. Um, you have been appointed to the planning and zoning commission for a reason. Uh,
1:06:34 you have the mandate of people who received votes. I have received none.
1:06:39 And so where we left it is basically that I I think you all were going to think about it. You know, some of the
1:06:46 changes I made, maybe you have your own ideas and that's where we're at. I I would still like to push this forward.
1:06:54 We're not under a specific timeline, but uh I would love your input and so that's why I've asked it to have on your agenda.
1:07:02 All right. Uh we'll open it up for discussion. Um maybe we can uh we can come down the just come down the the row if there's anybody has any any comments.
1:07:11 Start with you, Commissioner Tona. Is it all right if I have a hand out? Yes, please. Thank you.
1:07:20 So, I think my biggest concern uh with some of the edits um when I read it is it it sounds like
1:07:29 in my opinion that it's it's too much that we're trying to comply with House Bill 399.
1:07:37 Um and I I me personally, I think we're just giving up way too much stuff.
1:07:44 um you know, community character, neighbor feel, neighborhood feel, no longer being sufficient, things like
1:07:52 that. Um having to keep incredible records to have any type of denial. So, it's just in my opinion that
1:08:00 the wording should stay there if it gives us a leg up to fight, for lack of
1:08:08 a better term. Um, we never, you know, we we always seem in, again, it's my opinion that we're placating and
1:08:18 complying, but I've been on this uh committee for over a year and a half. Uh, we never
1:08:26 talk about shities. We never talk about uh how raising impact fees might be able to help our first responders. And it
1:08:34 looks like mobility fees have just gone down the toilet. Um, I guess part of my concern additionally is, and we we saw
1:08:44 this up north happen, once all the large acreages are developed,
1:08:52 eventually these developers based on community feel and not being able to hold them accountable for anything,
1:09:00 community character, are going to start going after the residents that have two or more acres. And that's where you're
1:09:07 going to see people either getting bought out or maybe selling two or three acres to a developer, five acres, 10
1:09:14 acres, and then it's at the whim of the developer to put on there whatever they want, and
1:09:20 we can't stop them. So, I I am not in favor of taking out any language
1:09:28 that could prevent that from happening or give us a leg to stand on. It it certainly I don't I just don't understand
1:09:37 why no one in Clermont wants to fight the fight. Um the other thing is if this is approved, I guess my other last
1:09:46 concern is what how does this impact DPZ and the money that we spent on their comp plan
1:09:56 when their comp plan may or may not even take this into account. So, we're going to get a comp
1:10:04 plan that now needs to be recmp planned because we're going to change the language on how developers get away with murder. And that's my biggest concern.
1:10:14 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
1:10:17 All right, Mr. Chair, can I just Yes. Well, that Yes, please respond.
1:10:25 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it's not this is a conversation, so I mean, it's not I'm not um I'm not feeling attacked.
1:10:32 [laughter]
1:10:33 Um I just want to clarify because so for example, the only language that I've suggested taking out is either
1:10:40 completely redundant with words that are already there or um not sustainable legally. So for example, the the words
1:10:50 about proposed use may be considered desirable at a particular location. I mean that has no in my this is just my
1:10:59 opinion. It doesn't have any legal validity because it could mean anything. It could be based on literally anything.
1:11:07 And therefore, how can you give guidance to anyone wanting to come to Clermont
1:11:14 on what to expect either here or with the city commission? It just doesn't matter. It has no meaning. Um, and then
1:11:22 the strike through on subsection one talking about density, intensity, character, and type of development. It it says it shall be in conformance with
1:11:30 the comp plan and basically your land development code. Well, in subsection C, it already says that. So, I'm not trying
1:11:37 to take tools away. Um, I'm very interested if you have other criteria that you want to add. So, you you will
1:11:45 note this is the first time anyone has ever talked about multimodal paths, sidewalks, or trails being added. It's
1:11:54 the first time ever. So, that's that's something that's under your consideration as well. Um, but I I have
1:12:02 no dog in the fight. This won't affect anything DPZ does because DPZ is not looking at this code section. What
1:12:11 they're looking at is your comprehensive plan. So, your comprehensive plan is a step above this. Everything in our code
1:12:19 has to be consistent with your comprehensive plan, but nothing in the comp plan is going to take away our ability to deal with conditional use
1:12:28 permits, if that makes sense. So, um, but but look, I mean, I'm open. Whatever your instructions are, I'll follow.
1:12:37 Yes, go ahead.
1:12:39 Thank you for that. Um, I got to tell you that I enjoy a little bit more redundancy and
1:12:46 the minutia of the wording. Uh that was made quite adequate to me when we met uh
1:12:54 all together to that roundt meeting and we discussed how there were a subsection
1:13:01 to a subsection of another subsection to a third subsection of why we could actually which actually vindicated this
1:13:10 committee into how we actually do our deep dive. So it was due to that going
1:13:17 down to the minutia of the of the code that again it vindicated to all of you
1:13:24 why we do the the due diligence that we do. The other thing and you're not here my handout
1:13:31 is a I I I basically did a Google search uh does Florida HB 399 supersede local
1:13:40 comprehensive plans? Okay. So Holland and Knight Law Firm wrote an
1:13:46 article in July 29th basically saying that although Florida Bill 399 is not going to completely replace or supersede
1:13:54 local comprehensive plans, but it forces local governments to change and follow new state rules inside those plans. So
1:14:04 again, whatever comes out through DPZ may need to be reviewed because if with 399, we're still going to have to
1:14:12 comply. Um, Becca, I think that's right. What's that? Yeah, I I agree with you.
1:14:20 Okay. So, and and now Holland and Knight also goes on because
1:14:27 I I asked the question again this is Google, okay? I didn't speak to anybody. How to fight 399.
1:14:36 Local governments can fight and manage the impacts of 399 by establishing strict objective compatibility
1:14:45 standards, creating airtight written records for project denials and re-calibrating fee structures which 399
1:14:54 takes away. Additionally, decisions need to be based on use
1:15:01 traffic counts, which we don't count on for some reason, even though my fellow commissioner showed a picture of wall-to-wall traffic, environmental
1:15:11 limits, which we don't talk about, even though trees get raised to the ground and wildlife is dispersed. and
1:15:19 infrastructure capacities which again we don't talk about because the roads in Clermont are need some
1:15:27 sort of help. Okay. [snorts] So according to different law firms of what I'm reading, these things could be
1:15:35 denied just based on traffic, environment, and infrastructure. And that's not including what I've brought
1:15:42 up continually, the life safety issue that the city of Clermont realizes because our emergency response cannot
1:15:51 get through the traffic. So I I'll say it again. I don't mean to be a hard butt, but I like the redundancy and the
1:16:00 minutia because if it gives us a leg to stand on to say no, to me that's a good thing. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
1:16:08 All right, Commissioner May.
1:16:14 Hey, Christian. Um, so I read I read through this and I think you added I I agree that uh we're trying to make it
1:16:22 more uh objective versus subjective especially with this HB399 because it does require every local
1:16:30 government to adopt objective measurable criteria in its comprehensive plan and land development regulations which is what the reason why we're here to try to
1:16:39 get these changes done. we're when it comes to legalities at least we'll have facts versus just because we
1:16:47 just don't like it. Um so you know I'm just going to go through c some of the things and I think um I
1:16:56 put my thoughts down as well um an email because it's a lot. So,
1:17:04 you know, I I I I I believe that you've left the most important thing, which is, you know, which we can get around subjectively, which is it's it's
1:17:11 detrimental to the health, safety, or general welfare, and we got to make sure that we can defend that. Um, the question that I have is that you use the
1:17:20 word violate. Is there a reason why violate is being used? Is that a word
1:17:26 that you feel in legal terms could be strong enough uh versus complying? Uh
1:17:34 you used it twice. You used it in the grantium. The conditional use permits will not violate the officially adopted comprehensive plan of the city and then
1:17:41 you used it again in number three. The proposed use will not violate the land development code. So basically we're we
1:17:50 can't they cannot go against what is written based on that violate word. It's strong but I think it's strong in um to donut's kind of way.
1:18:02 I I um I appreciate that question. I think let me let me take a stab at it.
1:18:08 So my thinking on subsection C1 was that the term adversely affect could mean a
1:18:16 lot of things. I mean that like adversely affect an officially adopted comprehensive plan. What does that mean
1:18:25 if it's not a violation, right? Like it's something that's close to a violation. Is it something that's
1:18:33 like in one person's opinion not consistent with it? I mean, so what I'm trying to in my view, the only way that
1:18:42 something could adversely affect a comp plan is if it did violate it. If it if that makes sense. And I I'll give you an example. Um I was I'm I'm one of the
1:18:51 special masters for code enforcement in Citrus County and there was an application for a sand mine there
1:18:59 recently. And so it came to me to decide, is there going to be a sand mine next to a residential community of 600
1:19:06 homes that has horses and all kinds of stuff? I mean, can you imagine? But what the comprehensive plan says is there's
1:19:14 there's four elements for considering it. And one of the elements was you have to be able to restore the property back to the way it was once the extraction is
1:19:23 done. And so based on the fact that they testifi, I mean, they had an expert testify it'll never go back to the way it was. I said, "Easy. It violates the
1:19:31 comp plan. I'm not going to allow it." Um, so that's just my attempt to make it clear because I don't understand what adversely affect means if it doesn't
1:19:38 mean violate. And then, um, on the second change where I put violate, I I don't think you need that. You could
1:19:45 probably still keep it and say the proposed use will comply with the land development code. I think there it doesn't matter.
1:19:57 Great. Um, I mean, violates a pretty strong word. So, um, I mean, if they don't violate the land development code,
1:20:06 I'm I'm pretty good with that. So, u, I I I understand the the the taking out of the proposed use may be considered desirable at the particular location
1:20:14 because then that becomes subjective, which can open up um questions. Um, so I I I do agree that you're trying to put
1:20:23 the guard rails um into this into this ordinance. Now when it comes to the
1:20:30 additions that you added specifically under transportation, utilities, storm water management and [snorts] then I have some additions
1:20:39 in oh sol solid waste disposal on transportation. I agree I think the inter mo the multimodal paths are
1:20:48 important. And I think that's something that uh our city is trying to strive for especially you know we are the city of amazing trails and so we're striving for
1:20:57 more connection and I believe that's the reason why I participate in the greenways and trails uh for Clermont because I believe in that. So I thank
1:21:05 you so much for putting that. Uh my question though was on sufficient size length width and capacity. It says the
1:21:14 city's transportation system including the sidewalks, trails, multimmoal paths and or streets must be sufficient size,
1:21:21 link, width, and capacity to serve the demands created by development. So my question is my question is what or who determines
1:21:29 sufficient size, length, width and capacity specifically for trails and sidewalks? I think we need to be very specific on size, length, width. I know
1:21:38 that, you know, we have we have a standard of 4 feet for sidewalks. I mean, honestly, I've driven down 50th
1:21:47 and I've seen less than four feet. Um, probably two feet. And I think I think your street also has that issue as
1:21:56 hardwood marsh. I don't know if that's four feet or two feet, but 50th for sure.
1:22:00 50th for sure. and and I noticed, you know, when you try to do a multimotal, which is a pedestrian and a bic biker on
1:22:08 that street, especially on 50th, there is no uh bike trails, it becomes a problem. So, I be I think that we need to be specific on size if possible. I
1:22:17 think that our standard should start looking we should start looking at a minimum at least of 8 feet. That should be our minimum. That should be our
1:22:25 standard instead of the four um to make this a success for the future. Um, in
1:22:31 regards to utilities, I fight I talk about it all the time. I don't see anything about trees in here. I think
1:22:39 trees has to be part of our infrastructure. Green infrastructure is very important, especially for the
1:22:45 health and general welfare because it does provide health benefits. It
1:22:52 provides um, you know, uh, it mitigates urban heat island effects. I think this year, I don't know about the last year,
1:23:00 but this year it was one hot summer. It was brutal and it's still brutal. So, we, you know, having some language in
1:23:08 there, adding as trees as green infrastructure because not only does it um help with the heat island effect, but
1:23:17 it also helps with um you know, our storm water. Um it could be a great storm water retention tool.
1:23:24 It's been used in other cities. So that I would like to see some language in there as well. And then the most important and and Mr. Ne bring brings it
1:23:33 up all the time. But on number seven, we have solid waste disposal, but it only talks about solid waste disposal. It
1:23:40 doesn't talk about storage. Um, and that is something that's very important and it came up and the importance of it came
1:23:47 up last at our last commission meeting um where a gentleman came in um talking about the storage and the issues that
1:23:54 we're having in downtown. Um, and it it wasn't just on the specific property that we talked about, but it's it's
1:24:02 mostly everywhere. Um, but we should add language in there about solid waste and disposal and storage. Um, I think that's
1:24:10 it for now and I don't want to keep up the time for anybody else, so I will pause for now. All right. Thank you, Commissioner Ensu.
1:24:17 Thank you, Chair. Um, so I have mainly just two two questions and one's a a double hit, I guess you could say. And
1:24:25 this is kind of just for my own edification for the public as well. Um, in terms of Yeah, I know. In terms of
1:24:34 the role of the checklist, um I think on the last page, um for my own information, is this essentially going
1:24:42 to be just an internal tool for development services or is this kind of going to be like a checklist for
1:24:49 applicants as well to kind of look at or developers? Um or is there going to be an essentual um essentially a uh
1:24:56 completed copy included in our packets from staff? Um, and the only reason I'm saying that is because, okay, like if if
1:25:04 you know this is something that's just internal, are is staff going to have to, you know, tell this to us in public or
1:25:11 tell it to us in a meeting before or after? Um, or how exactly is that going to play out? Um, to kind of look through
1:25:19 that checklist and make sure that we're checking all the boxes. Um, and then I guess also, yeah, sorry. Also, a great
1:25:27 question and the honest answer is we're not sure. I mean it could be um I mean at the very minimum we wanted to have a
1:25:36 checklist uh for you um in terms of what the criteria are so that you have that in front of you when you're listening to
1:25:43 an application when you're considering the evidence. We've already created kind of a laminated spreadsheet for y'all of
1:25:50 the actual code section, but I think the idea in our discussion has been to create the checklist primarily for you.
1:25:58 Um I don't I haven't given much thought to staff having something similar but we
1:26:07 are looking for your feedback. So, it kind of depends on what you want.
1:26:11 And yeah, and I think just to you follow up on that, you know, if it is to be included, um I think it may be good to
1:26:18 essentially have staff kind of provide a, you know, either a preliminary or an initial, you know, condition met or, you know, condition not met or, you know,
1:26:27 something that they may need, you know, if they need something else, maybe they can add that in as well. Um, just so we have a better understanding of, you
1:26:35 know, why that decision was taken. Um, and the reason I'm saying that is kind of just alludes to the last point is when I was on council, you know, I was
1:26:44 obviously on there on a time where we had a number of I'll say legal battles.
1:26:50 Um, and it was one of those things where, you know, especially looking in in in in combination with HP 399, which don't get me started on that because
1:26:59 Tallahassee loves to take power away from local government. Um, it's one of those things where any applicant could
1:27:07 come in and say, "Oh, you know, you missed a you missed a word here and because of that, you know, you're you're discriminating against me or something along along the lines of that." So,
1:27:15 just, you know, I think this is a really good start uh in terms of making sure that we're the city is bulletproof,
1:27:24 especially when it comes to developers and applicants. Um but I just wanted to make you aware of that and say hey you know this might be something we need to look into if if we are going to look at
1:27:32 doing you know a better uh better um review of you know cup the criteria and the checklist that we have. So um just
1:27:41 was curious on that and you know if it's something that we've thought about.
1:27:47 I think that's really interesting because I could imagine that being really useful in that sometimes when
1:27:54 staff presents DUPs to you, they already have the conditions worked out and negotiated. Yeah. And
1:28:02 one of the things that we could do is kind of put by which item in the criteria that addresses. And so that's
1:28:11 what that makes me think of. Um and um so good idea. Yeah.
1:28:16 Yeah. And also, you know, it may save time and energy. So, all right. Thank you, Commissioner Neck.
1:28:25 First of all, I'd like to uh thank Commissioner May for taking two of my questions. I swear I think you're
1:28:33 bugging my house, but that's something different.
1:28:36 Uh my most concern is I'd like to bring this to staff. Are you comfortable with these changes?
1:28:44 We'll work with them, chair. Are you That wasn't that That's not the question, director. Are you comfortable with these changes?
1:28:55 I don't mean to put you on the spot.
1:28:58 It's a great because you have a lot more experience than I do at this. You've been going you you've seen rules come and go. That's
1:29:06 why I'm asking if you're comfortable with them.
1:29:10 So if if if I may, I'm just looking at the checklist and thinking about the CUP we just heard.
1:29:17 So in my mind, I'm going down it under letter A, pro approval of conditions. That's that would have been
1:29:24 the check box I would have checked initially when they came in. It was denial because of the parking issue. Correct. So that that would have been the check.
1:29:33 postponement requirements. I don't think that's so much for us because if we have to continue it, we tell them we we're not going to be able to support your
1:29:41 project. That might be for something for the commission to say, "Hey, time out.
1:29:46 We need more information that we may have overlooked." Um, then we get to see use does not
1:29:53 violate the city's comprehensive plan. I couldn't see anything in the Mr. Gates's proposal where it would violate that. Um
1:30:01 if he did ask for that like say in a residential zoning or future land use then hey yes it violates that um not
1:30:09 detrimental to the health safety and general welfare with the letters provided by the the tenants in the area and looking at the parking that took
1:30:18 care of that that box and staff size and then use does not violate the land development code. It's a it's an
1:30:26 allowable use to be considered under a conditional use permit. So we check that box. Then going down under letter D,
1:30:34 compatibility of development with terrain and surroundings. It was already a built constructed building with a parking lot. Transportation system
1:30:42 adequacy. We talked about the parking attendant. There was some discussions about how it would function with the
1:30:48 other tenants in the building. Utilities availability. Utilities already in place. Storm water management, it's
1:30:56 already in place. site planning. It's pretty much in place. It's built. And then solid waste disposal capacity. I
1:31:03 wouldn't think they're going to generate any more uh solid waste other than an office that was existing there. So just
1:31:10 going down the the checklist as looking at it for Mr. Gates's project, that's how I would do it. And that's just on the fly that I just did. So to maybe that help helps answer some of that.
1:31:22 Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, Mr.
1:31:24 Cruz. Appreciate that. Uh, question to council.
1:31:29 I noticed that you have a lot of strikethroughs. That means you're deleting.
1:31:35 And I noticed that you have a lot of bold underline. Is there anything you might have forgot to put in this that we don't know?
1:31:43 I'm sorry. I didn't I heard your foundation. I didn't hear your actual question.
1:31:48 Oh, okay. Let me restate it. Did you leave anything out of this?
1:31:55 Oh, did I leave anything out of this? Yes. For recommendations?
1:32:00 Yeah, I I I think I did. I mean, just just what I would anticipate you recommending. You are, you know, I' I've
1:32:08 already heard some ideas that maybe I would incorporate. I haven't left anything out based on what I've done,
1:32:16 but basically my process was when I was going through it and making these changes, I got to a point where I realized I felt I was going beyond what
1:32:25 your mandate was and that's why I wanted to find out what you wanted.
1:32:33 Thank you. No further questions right now for councel. All right. Thank you, Commissioner Kramer.
1:32:42 Thank you. Um I don't have a lot of questions actually. I just want to talk a little bit about the checklist and
1:32:48 clarify in section D. Um it says transportation system adequacy.
1:32:56 Is that where we're covering parking?
1:33:00 Because much like solid waste, parking is as we saw tonight was a big issue.
1:33:06 Um, I'm just suggesting if parking is not under the transportation that we add another bullet point counselor that says parking.
1:33:13 Okay. Good agreement. I like that. I I was assuming which makes any Yeah. I just didn't know whether it's part of transportation system adequacy.
1:33:23 I So from uh staff's perspective, we would
1:33:30 take that under consideration the site planning. Okay.
1:33:34 Oh, really? Yeah, the site planning because that's internal to the site.
1:33:38 Yes, there could be some transportation by the question you asked when they leave. Um, again, that's it could cross over in some of these categories as well.
1:33:47 So, and then the only other suggestion I have about the checklist is that um under a where it says I love this idea
1:33:56 postponement, denial, denial without prejudice, approval or approval with conditions.
1:34:03 um that maybe we add on to the checklist. What are those conditions? So that as we're making our notes here, check. Uh they've got the future date,
1:34:11 essential missing information. I'm sorry. Does not violate city's comprehensive plan. Check. Use is not detrimental to health, safety, and
1:34:19 general welfare. Check. Um use does not violate the land development code. Well, maybe there's something in there and it's approval with conditions. But what
1:34:28 are we what is the I'd just like to see what's that condition on the checklist
1:34:35 if I can address that place to put it there as well. Um, we normally wouldn't bring you anything without conditions because of
1:34:43 conditional use permit. Um, this is more I would say this is more in your eyes because I know it's been mentioned in the past of maybe we should postpone
1:34:52 this till we get more information and I'm just throwing this out there.
1:34:55 Normally when we bring something forward it's usually denial or it's approval with conditions, you know, or we'll say, you know, staff
1:35:04 recommends approval of resolution 2026-29R with conditions.
1:35:11 denial without prejudice. That's more of a legal uh issue down the road and Christian could uh explain some of that
1:35:18 once it goes to council. Um but really from staff's position postponement might be wherever we for example we have it um
1:35:27 advertised we're ready to come in here tonight and something happens where the applicant could not make it and then we would say would you please consider a
1:35:36 postponement you know denial is denial denial without prej prejudice and then approval or approval conditions I would
1:35:44 say the conditional use permit uh the resolution always has conditions so really that's I think some of this is to help guide you as well.
1:35:53 Exactly.
1:35:54 I think the postponement also is we've tabled um correct so it should be postponement is is part
1:36:02 of the table process as well so no further questions chair commissioner
1:36:10 thank you Mr. chair. Um, all of my concerns really have been addressed. Um, I don't have a problem with the words um, violate. I think we need to have
1:36:18 something in there strong. So, I'm good with that. I definitely agree with the transportation where we're talking about sufficient size link that would be specific that we're specific in those.
1:36:30 Also agree with Commissioner May with the trees and the greenery. Um, definitely with the checklist. I was wondering about that. Is it something
1:36:39 that we're going to maintain? Is it something that's going to be documented so that we will have a reference in case
1:36:47 something does not work out and we're entering into a debate or any type of lawsuit with that. So, I agree that we need to maintain that. And then my other
1:36:56 question, I think Commissioner Neim asked it if the staff was okay with the changes and any recommendations. I mean, we depend on you. you're our subject
1:37:04 matter experts to make sure that you're guiding us along with our attorney that we are working with the right tool. That's it.
1:37:12 Right. Thank you. Any comment to that, Christian?
1:37:18 I'm not sure. I I I thought I might have heard something for me to address, but I wasn't sure what it was. Could you restate it?
1:37:25 Well, I didn't I didn't know if you had had any um she she um she gave some information. I didn't know if you had any comment on that.
1:37:33 Um I guess one thing I would say u since I clearly need to hear the sound of my
1:37:38 own voice is um I I think one of the issues and this kind of addresses some
1:37:47 several people's comments is that if you have criteria that are too general then
1:37:55 they can be abused. Um so for example in in the old days you know if if if for
1:38:02 example the Soviet Union's criteria for giving you a building permit is does it serve the proletariat? Does it serve the
1:38:10 people? What it what that really means is it could mean anything. And that's why I that's why I mean it it's not good
1:38:18 enough for the rule of law. It's not good enough. It doesn't have actual meaning um that gives people asurances they're going to be protected. So, I
1:38:27 want you to have discretion, but I also want to have the rule of law. And that's kind of what's behind this to some
1:38:35 extent. If you do have a checklist, I mean, the checklist itself is not legal, you know, like we're we're we don't follow the checklist is more organizational.
1:38:45 Um, at the end of the day, the code is still the thing that's legal and that matters, if that makes sense. So,
1:38:53 okay. All right. answer your Does that answer your question, Paula?
1:39:00 His last part.
1:39:03 Okay, you got it. Great. Where's the IT guy? You want to the checklist?
1:39:08 Yeah, because it does. And I understand. It does, but it doesn't to me. I think it's a check and balance, right?
1:39:14 I think it's a check and balance. And I think it's important that we have a checklist to ensure that thing. I'm a process person to make sure the process
1:39:21 has been followed. make sure everyone looked at everything that they're supposed to look at and the legal bound I can go back and say well on this
1:39:29 date on this checklist you checked off that this said XYZ and now you're telling me something different correct that's what I'm saying because
1:39:37 like you said you brought up a very good point can we legally let's say we get into a lawsuit is it going to be documented
1:39:45 right and and your last question I guess kind of leads into my my question the things that you that [snorts] you struck out here I I assume they're they're they're either weak or or or redundant.
1:39:55 Uh for example, number four, proposed use may be considered um desirable. Is that just like too subject like that's
1:40:04 just has no meat to it? It's just someone's interpretation.
1:40:09 Yeah. I mean I I to me it's not um susceptible. It's not objective enough.
1:40:17 That's just my opinion. I mean, honestly, I'm not wedded to anything and uh whatever you all want, I would love to implement.
1:40:26 Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I I I get that. I I kind of the I I liked, you know, most of the strikes striking the
1:40:35 the the density or intensity. Um you know, that that one kind of hurt to see that one just stuck out, but um but but
1:40:42 I I I get where you're coming from. Um do you have an opinion um Christian or you know kind of our you've received a lot of feedback from the commission.
1:40:53 What do you what do you um think um would be a good next step forward with this
1:41:06 Christian?
1:41:07 I commissioner I mean one thing we could do is if if we don't have necessarily a
1:41:14 consensus on code changes we could still implement the checklist. I mean, what you have here would be would be good and
1:41:24 adaptable regardless of what your code section says. So, I mean, we could get started with that right away.
1:41:33 Everybody good with that?
1:41:37 All right. And the um the other will be um a work in progress, I guess, and an opportunity to give you more feedback,
1:41:45 Christian, from the the individual members of the commission.
1:41:50 I I would love that. And and if anyone wants to email me their ideas or their suggested red lines, whatever they want, I'd be interested in knowing.
1:41:59 Okay. Yeah. Go ahead, Commissioner May.
1:42:02 I just want to jump on what Kramer was saying in regards to, you know, we don't see parking, but I think um just looking
1:42:08 at what u Mr. Tuna had given us here uh traffic counts and infrastructure capacity is so important uh because of
1:42:17 you know lack of water we we need to make sure that development that is comes to the city that we have the infrastructure
1:42:26 and everything roads traffic water consumption as well that's it I agree 100%
1:42:34 so that's it for me and I I did love some of the clarifications you had Christian that you including the the sidewalks, multimodal pallet, stuff like that. I I think is a is a fantastic ad to this.
1:42:46 John, go ahead.
1:42:47 Just one two things real real quick. I kind of like the term adversely affect over violate because I think it gives us
1:42:55 more latitude to deny something. You call it gray area what you want, but I could see getting into a pissing contest with an attorney over the word violate.
1:43:05 I think adversely effect gives us a lot more room to maneuver that we do not agree with the CUP. I think number four
1:43:14 should stay in there. The proposed use may be considered desirable at the particular location because I still
1:43:20 think that gives us a minor leg up on community character and neighborhood feel not being sufficient enough to
1:43:29 stand as support of the denial. And so those are just Commissioner, what I would suggest is why not why don't we have words about
1:43:38 that? I mean, why don't we add or change it to what you're saying? Cuz what you're saying is more specific. What
1:43:45 you're saying we probably could use. Um, if that makes sense. I mean, if that's what your concern is, let's put it in the code.
1:43:54 I'm with you. All right. I'm good.
1:43:59 Sounds good. Anybody else? Any other comments for Christian at this time? If not, we can uh follow up with him.
1:44:07 All right. Well, thank you, Christian. We appreciate all your work on this.
1:44:12 Thank you. I look forward to hearing from you.
1:44:14 All right. We have any other business um before us.
1:44:19 If not, I will entertain a motion for adjournment. I'll set a motion for adjournment. Second.
1:44:28 I'll second. All in favor?
1:44:30 I I we are ajourned. Bang it louder in the beginning.