Clermont City Council Workshop Transcript 4/21/26

1:38 And let me say thank you to the city uh uh to this workshop uh for 21 April 2026
1:47 uh council workshop meetings are for information gathering and discussion purposes. The council city council will not vote on any issues at the work shop
1:55 meetings. The council reserves the right to discuss additional items or delete items from the attentive agenda. I think agenda have about three items on it
2:03 today. Uh I do not foresee any anything else being added. But before we go any further, would you mind sir?
2:11 I don't mind.
2:12 Giving us Lord thank you for this beautiful day and all of our blessings. We pray you'd just bless our time and you give us
2:20 wisdom and lead and guide and direct this conversation. Uh bless our bless our guest consultant as well and give her wisdom and we welcome you and
2:29 everything and thank you for this beautiful community. We ask for your continued blessing in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you.
2:37 Welcome ma'am. I I appreciate you taking time out to come out and maybe uh teach us a little something here in communicating. Yes, sir.
2:46 Mayor, sorry. Um, normally I would never have my phone out. I I am waiting for a text message regarding work that I have to take when it comes through. So I I
2:54 apologize to my colleagues and and to the presenter in advance, but it's going to happen within the next uh one to two
3:01 hours and so I just need to take it deal with it real quick and come back. So I apologize in advance. Just want to let everyone know. Okay.
3:07 We're going to ask you to take your phones out anyway. Oh well. Okay.
3:10 Thank you. I was actually going to request that you guys take your phones out. All right. your favorite. I'll use my city phone for that.
3:17 All right. But with that being said, I'm I'm going to turn it over uh Mr. Mr. Van Wagner. You have it.
3:24 Thank you, sir. Well, I'm going to turn it over to our guest today. This is Doris. We had a wonderful conversation
3:31 with her. I believe she is educated and can have this conversation and be a
3:38 blessing to us and help us. So, we really appreciate her and thank you for coming. So, I'm going to turn it over to you.
3:45 Thank you so much. First of all, thank you guys for the opportunity to be here and to serve right in my community. I
3:53 have the opportunity to travel the country and pre present in workshops and do discussions and facilitate, but being
4:00 able to do it at home always feels a little bit special. So, thank you guys for that opportunity. So, today we're going to talk about really professional
4:08 disagreement, right? People say civility training. Sometimes people like to think of it as I'm acting
4:16 fake or being phony or playing nice. And that's what we're not going to do today.
4:21 We're not going to just play nice. We're going to talk about how do we be real and also be productive at the same time.
4:29 So, we're going to jump right in. 90 minutes is really a short time for this type of training, but I've tried to
4:36 really highlight or bring in the most important elements of that I feel like are important to the discussion and relevant to our community so that we can get the most out of our 90 minutes. So,
4:49 um, as Dan stated, I will be asking for you guys to utilize your cell phones. Um during portions of our my presentation,
4:56 I really wanted to make sure that this was a safe place. And it's hard for it to be a safe place when um it's open to public, when it's being live streamed.
5:05 You have to think about what people may public perceptions at the same time that you're learning. Typically in learning environments, you have to have that ability to challenge, to make a mistake,
5:16 to act something you don't understand without feeling judged. And I recognize that that's a little difficult for you guys to do in the positions that you are
5:24 in. So I have uh created a live polling that allows you to give me a little feedback anonymously. So it does not track. I don't know what your answer is.
5:36 I just refresh the screen and it lets me know the sentiments or the answers in the room without revealing who particularly said it. And I think that's effective for this type of conversation.
5:47 Is that okay with everyone? that opportunity to be able to go and give information um through the cell phone. Yes.
5:56 Awesome. All right. So, not going to spend a lot of time here. You guys have a copy of the PowerPoint to follow along as well. And then we're really going to spend most of our time in the workbook.
6:06 Um but I think the PowerPoint is helpful, especially if you can't see the words or anything. I just have a little bit about me up there. um not gonna read
6:15 a full resume, but just what I feel like is relevant is my hope I try not to look like I've been doing anything for over
6:21 20 years, but I have. Um I've spent the last 20 years leading teams. So I've had a team as small as five and my largest
6:29 team was 10,000 across five states, 97 locations. Um and so most of my career
6:36 I've spent building teams, how to make them effective. I've been uh responsible for tens of millions of dollars in territory and and profit and running at
6:45 P&L. And so, how do I adapt my communication style for the hourly employee up to the district level up to
6:53 the regional level and have everyone pushing towards the same goal? I spent my career in corporate. I've worked for brands like DHL, Cracker Barrel, Toys R
7:01 Us, Babies or Us, which is funny. They have the meme that anybody could say they work for Toys R Us. You can't really verify it, but I actually did work there.
7:10 But can we verify it?
7:12 I have a shirt and pictures so I can verify that I was actually there. Um,
7:17 and so that's a little bit about my my background. I am a ICF accredited uh executive coach and ICF is a global
7:24 organization that focuses on ethics in coaching. So like everybody can go online and say I'm a coach. Well, with
7:31 ICF you have to have the education, a certain amount of hours. You have to have a certain level of work experience.
7:38 you have to take a three-hour exam and you have to pledge a oath of ethics in order to call yourself a ICO coach and
7:44 it's not cheap. So, um I volunteered for that type of experience just so I'm a
7:51 responsible leader in the community in the corporate spaces that I'm allowed to service. So, just want to put that out
7:58 there that that's a little bit about me um as a professional and I am a Clermont resident. I am here I've raised my four children here. I've had one go through East Ridge, Wendy Hill,
8:09 and Lost Lake Elementary. I have one graduate college, one graduate East Ridge, and now one in middle and elementary school. So, I have a vested
8:17 interest in this community as I'm raising my family here. All right, so that's a little bit about me. Probably take 90 minutes if we all introduce
8:25 ourselves, but I felt like it was important for me to at least tell you who I was. Any questions, comments, anything so far? All right. All right.
8:33 Let's move on. All right. So, what are our goals today? And if you want, you can open up to the first page in the book. You'll see pages two and three.
8:40 And it talks about how we're going to leverage this workbook. I'm sorry, I should have said workbook.
8:48 You guys have a couple books in front of you. And then I'll tell you a little bit about radical respect in in a second.
8:54 So, let's open up and really talk about what our goals and objectives are. And if you have a pen handy, there's a couple things that I want you to jot
9:01 down. You will not share your workbook with anyone. So there won't be a quiz or anything about or no one would see what you write in your book. However, I may
9:09 ask you for your feedback. I would love for this to be conversational um as we work together. It makes the
9:16 time go faster and really having your feedback um and hearing the feedback of others across the room is really
9:23 important to helping to move um our agenda forward. So our goal is simple.
9:30 We're going to strengthen communication.
9:32 We're going to distinguish between civility and agreement because what I found in practice is sometimes people think there's the same thing. When they say civility training, they think about,
9:40 oh, somebody sits here to make us get along or to agree with each other. And that's not what it's about. It's about how to disagree in a professional
9:48 manner. We'll talk about how do we build collaboration and turn our differences into better policy and services. And
9:56 then we talk about how do we model professionalism?
10:00 um how do we model professionalism and how do we really remain authentic in our communication?
10:10 We're honest in what we're doing, but we are respectful in how we're delivering it.
10:18 All right? And so we'll go through these four stages in 90 minutes. So this is going to be a quick 90 minutes, right?
10:24 We're going to talk about the foundation of respect and honesty. So we'll go back and define those terms. We all have our inherent belief on what they mean, but
10:32 we will get a shared understanding of how we're going to leverage the words respect and honesty in this environment.
10:39 And then we're going to move into a framework. So, I'm going to teach you a really easy four-step framework of how to structure your conversation when
10:47 you're triggered. Um, it's easy sometimes to convey information when nothing is happening. But when you're offended,
10:56 um, when you're angry, when you feel alone, when you feel betrayed, when you have these other emotions going on, our
11:05 emotions sometimes take over and then we kind of lose sight of how to communicate in a certain way. So, we'll talk about a quick framework of this is how the best
11:14 way to kind of structure that communication. still being honest, still giving the feedback, but structuring it where your communication is now
11:22 productive. All right, we'll have a chance to practice. So, I'm going to give you a scenario and we're going to build out that communication and we'll
11:30 practice it and then we'll talk at the end about commitment. So, what of this workshop will we take forward or will we
11:37 implement? Any questions about our learning journey?
11:44 You guys are quiet. All right. So, we're going to jump into the first poll. Let's test it out. So, if you guys have your
11:51 cell phone, there's a QR code there. And this is just a quick question. What happen is once you scan the QR code,
11:59 you'll see the same question appear on your phone. You'll be able to answer that question and submit it.
12:07 And really, our first question is, how would you describe the current level of collaboration in council discussion? Do
12:15 you feel like it's very very strong collaboration?
12:18 Is it just strong? Is it a mixed bag? Or do you feel like it needs a improvement?
12:26 I'll give you a couple seconds to hit submit and then I'll refresh the screen and then we'll have live results come up.
12:56 All right. So, I appreciate we have a lot of active participation. This first question,
13:02 um, I saw others scan, so it's really designated for the council members to go ahead and give us that information, but this is good. The first question would
13:11 allow us perception of everyone that's in the room. Thank you.
13:30 Look like Bring it out.
14:03 I hope it doesn't make me do that for everyone. All right, so we have our responses available.
14:09 So, okay, so we had a total of six responses. So, maybe six people replied and the answers were 50% mixed, 50%.
14:20 Is there anyone that would like to open up a discussion about why you may have voted that way or why you believe the results are that way?
14:28 Well, I think mixed and needs improvement kind of is the same. You know what I mean?
14:33 If you're mixed, then you it needs improvement. So, it could be answered either way. They're probably the same answer.
14:41 Okay. Thank you for sharing. Anyone else?
14:58 and they agree that it needs improvement.
15:02 All right. So, next one. This is another polling question. I may have to come out to refresh it.
15:11 How often do tensions escalate during your council meetings? What is your perception? How often does it happen? Is this never? Is it rarely,
15:22 sometimes, often? Or would you say very often?
15:38 Forgive me if I have to go back out and back in just Having trouble here.
15:49 We got to make sure we get your vote. Mayor,
15:51 well, I'm having trouble getting to the next question. Still thinking,
16:14 I'm giving you a second before I refresh. Thank you.
16:22 For some reason, it's making me come out in order to do the refresh part.
16:42 So, we have four responses in so far, so there's still time.
16:48 And what we're seeing is often and very often saying that it
16:56 Anybody want to provide feedback on tensions and escalations context?
17:26 Do you guys think it's normal for there to be tensions in the meeting in the council? Do you think it's do you think
17:34 it's common kind of going along with your question is it common place for there to be some level of tension in the type of work
17:42 that you're doing in terms of people are disagreeing there's a difference of opinion um you're thinking from a global
17:50 perspective in terms of thinking more macro level do you think that it's common place that tension would be in
17:58 this type of environment I think to a degree small amount.
18:28 So a little bit of what studies are showing right now is that tensions have escalated over the last 5 to 10 years in not only
18:37 political environment but in corporate spaces in in in team spaces just collectively
18:44 um as we are you know we're more outspoken we have the the courage to state a difference of opinion um and we
18:53 the courage is growing without the education and in debate and so not necessarily educated in how
19:00 do I professionally disagree however feeling more emboldened or courageous in in saying I feel this way or this is my
19:09 opinion and I'm very comfortable stating in the room and so what we're finding especially again in the corporate space
19:16 is that tension is becoming an element in in group discussions period in most
19:23 settings um what's the threshold for too much? I think is yet to be clearly identified but there's a certain level
19:30 of performance tension that is involved just in the meeting um communicating
19:38 planning visionary strategic space and a little bit of that is to be expected but
19:45 when you say that it's often I think that's when we have to take a step back and evaluate you know what are we doing why is it so often and why has
19:54 it maybe exceeded what normal performance No, go ahead.
20:02 I read a book once that talked about what's worth fighting over.
20:08 And it spoke about truth being something that's worth fighting over.
20:16 Opinions not.
20:19 I think to your point about opinion is just an opinion. how I feel. How I feel is how I feel right or wrong. It's just
20:28 how I feel. There's no point in fighting over it because when it comes to the truth, the capital
20:35 truth, the universal truth, that which is that which is grounded in reality,
20:41 that which is real in particular, that that's worth fighting. And I think that the modern world of social media
20:48 emboldens people to think their opinion is important. to them.
20:55 That's not our role.
20:58 Another way I've heard it is principle versus perspective.
21:02 And sometimes we get very attached to our perspective.
21:06 Um, and we argue perspective versus arguing principles or we make our perspective a principle.
21:15 I I think that there's work that we do that is truth, but a a good chunk of the work we do is opinion. Uh, What I mean
21:22 by that is is truth may be we have $5,000.
21:26 Everyone can say that's what the bank statement says. We sent the finance director in. He counted the bills.
21:32 There's $5,000. That is truth. But how to spend that $5,000.
21:38 There is no truth to that. It's everybody's opinion of what they think how that 5,000 should be spent. So I I I
21:47 hear what council member Strange is saying, but I think a lot of the decisions we're making is is not capital T truth. It's based off perspective,
21:57 opinion, feedback, experience in what we think is is either right or the best
22:04 decision in the moment. That's where I think council members in general, not just here, but I think in politics, fail
22:11 the people is when they fail to establish what is because I think you're speaking to what is real versus the
22:20 reality that we all agree upon. So, I think it's our job as council members to agree upon what is the reality of living in Clermont.
22:30 And that's where disagreement is going to come in because we're going to bring a different perspective. We're going to bring
22:38 different backgrounds, but we tend to steer in my observation of of this
22:47 particular council and I think and I see it everywhere. I don't even want to say just with us because I see it all over.
22:53 We don't have an agreement as leaders on what principles we will govern by. And
23:02 in failing to have agreement on what the principles are, what it means is every decision becomes an opinion instead of
23:09 every decision being weighed against principles.
23:13 I like we had an agreement on that that would be our reality and we could live within it and have far less confidence.
23:21 I love where you're going with that because part of today is going to be about agreeing on the principles of respect and honesty as the foundation.
23:29 honest leadership in terms of what does it look like to authentically communicate our perspectives. So, we're going to stay honest because again, when
23:38 we talk about civility, people think of it sometimes as playing ice. And this is really about respect and responsibility.
23:46 How do I show up honestly in a respectful way? And so we're gonna So I love that you went there because that's really the foundation for today
23:54 is how do we create shared vision around what respect and honesty looks like? Let that be the foundation for how we
24:01 interact with each other and then leverage this framework when we're triggered to kind of keep us on the north star and how we communicate and that should help to move us forward.
24:11 So I put this up again civility is not agreement. And so if you go online and you were to Google what is professional disagreement or
24:19 what are the principles of how to degree uh agree professionally, you're going to find these four principles. Just about everyone us utilizes these four
24:27 principles. What was really cool about is engage with professionalism, listen without interrupting, challenge ideas,
24:34 not people. So that ability to separate the person from the perspective and then stay in focus on outcomes. What was
24:41 really cool about this is I went through and I read the city of Clermont's code of conduct and all of these are listed in there already.
24:50 Um, so that was a great thing that um not sure who's responsible for doing the code of conduct but kudos. It does
24:58 include the four principles of professional disagreement. So the the knowledge is there. Now it's more about the application because it came right in
25:07 the code of conduct. It includes the industry standard for professional disagreement right there in the code of conduct. Um now it's a matter of how do
25:15 we effectively do that all the time. Um it talks about again the policy how to phrase but I found examples of it being
25:24 listed right there in the code of conduct. So that was really helpful to know that we don't have to rewrite the script here. It already exists. Now we
25:31 just need to learn. Now we just need to effectively apply the knowledge that's there.
25:37 Right. So, I'm going to ask a question open for discussion. Why does disagreement matter?
25:45 Why is it important to disagree?
25:49 Well, you think about, you know, let's say you're driving down the road and you see a cliff there. It's important and that person doesn't see the cliff. It's important then to to like let them know
25:58 what you see. Like that's the discussion. That's the truth. We don't know. Truth can be variable. You know,
26:04 truth isn't always there. It's like, you know, is that the truth or is that your perspective like you were saying? And
26:12 that's what we're going to, you know, we get it to a fine point. And u so
26:19 I think we challenge people when we hear something that's goes against our grain and then you then you'll say I don't
26:27 think that's correct, you know, but we have to do it in a civil manner as opposed to you're stupid to say that.
26:35 Definitely don't do that right here.
26:37 Well, this this agreement to me it matters because it give me a p different perspective on things. Okay. It open my
26:45 eyes to different things because I'm not going to always see things as way see it and I I'm looking at it this way and you can give me a disagreement and of course
26:54 it make me think about other things what you're saying and is there time for me well maybe there's truth
27:01 here there's truth there. Now, where where are we? You know, so I'm always looking for I don't want one of the things I've always said, I
27:09 don't ever expect everybody to always agree with me and I I want some disagreement so I can I can give me another perspective on things. So, so I
27:18 look for that. Um because it to me it's educating me. It's a way of educating me on the topic and what things because I don't know it all.
27:28 I know that and everything and somebody else can help open my eyes to other sides that I didn't think about and help
27:34 me maybe even change my mind once I get that disagreement.
27:40 Well, I appreciate that, mayor, because that's exactly where we're going with it. Okay.
27:43 I two things, better ideas, stronger decisions.
27:49 So, again, and I'm going to say this a lot. Um, this isn't about just agreeing to agree,
27:55 right? Disagreement is important. It's important that you guys disagree. It's it's important that different perspectives are allowed into the room.
28:03 Um us as citizens of of of Clermont rely on you guys to bring in the different perspectives so that we're all represented in this space. And so disagreement matters. It is important.
28:15 It gets us the better ideas. It gets us the stronger decisions. What we want to do is we want to make sure that we're managing the conflict that comes along
28:23 with the disagreement. So if you look here, we talk about manage conflict, established norms, it has time limits.
28:31 It's the chair that's guiding, but it's clear decisions. It's structure, it's sustainable, unmanaged conflict. This is
28:39 where we have interruptions. This is where we have personal remarks, the cross talk. And that's where there's an underlining thing that's happening
28:47 there. There's I feel a lack of respect um there or I don't have a high level of respect for that individual. So I will
28:54 talk over them or I will disregard their opinion. And so that's when the conflict has now became unmanaged. And so we're
29:02 going to talk about how do we properly manage conflict because we want disagreement. The goal is never to eradicate disagreement from this room.
29:12 We're allowing you guys to disagree and get to the best decision um for for the citizens. And when I say we and us, I'm talking about the city.
29:22 Thank you. I'm we're here to represent the city as well. Right.
29:27 Right. All right. So, I want to ask this question. Has anyone had any formalized training in emotional intelligence?
29:36 Everybody's been through a session, had some training in emotional intelligence.
29:41 All right. So, good. So, there's a there's awareness there. So I I appreciate that because again a lot of this and our ability to and well I say
29:50 ability and how we respond when we're triggered is highly focused in our EQ that self-management piece. So
29:59 self-awareness is understanding your patterns and your triggers. I know I have a tendency to do this. I know that I tend to do those things.
30:07 Self-management is when those patterns or triggers happen.
30:12 Do you have the how do you respond? Do you have the ability to respond in a way that's in your best interest or do your
30:20 feelings take over and it doesn't really, you know, your interest kind of goes out of your mind and you're more so of you're responding out of emotion.
30:30 Um, emotional intelligence refers to relationship management.
30:37 How do you build relationships? How do you establish a rapport? How do you um collaborate with your colleagues is
30:45 super super important. It's all rooted though in your ability to understand and recognize yourself. And so from a so I
30:54 just want to open it up because I want to hear a little bit about what stands out most to you guys in terms of
31:01 emotional intelligence and where you are in selfawareness.
31:08 So if you go to page four of your book at the bottom
31:16 we're kind of going to do a self-awareness check again. Nobody's going to check your check your answers.
31:21 And I had the four principles of professional disagreement. And this is where I need that self-awareness, that
31:28 EQ to really show up. And I want you to answer honestly when you think about the way you engage with professionalism,
31:36 meaning how you maintain your composure, your tone, your body language, um, even when you disagree with someone.
31:45 So this is once you're triggered,
31:47 where would you say you are on a scale of one to five? And again, you can circle in your book. You don't have to say it out loud.
31:56 And then you'll move on to number two. From a self-awareness perspective,
32:04 how great you about listening without interrupting,
32:09 giving people the ability to finish your thoughts completely,
32:16 even when it's a thought you don't agree with.
32:23 Number three, are you really good about challenging the idea and not the person?
32:32 Do you critique the proposal or the data versus the person that's saying it?
32:45 And then number four,
32:50 how great are you about staying focused on the outcomes, meaning keeping the public good and the council goals at the center of your focus and discussion and decision.
33:04 And so I want to open it up.
33:08 Anybody want to share something that feel I'm consistently strong at this or hey, this is a principle that I can admit that I have room for opportunity.
33:21 Well, I'll open it up. Um re really myself and none of these will I can rate myself five in any of okay because I've
33:29 always look at myself there's always room for improvement. Okay. U now when I'm here
33:36 doing things and because I've had some of this training before Yes. I always try to treat everybody with professorism, but I do know it
33:44 sometimes. Um, I get a little aggravated and everything. And of course, I feel like I'm being attacked, so I tend to go
33:52 off the off the rail and do the same thing. But I I try to listen to what they're saying most of the time and try
34:00 to attack their ideals rather than the person themselves. But I do know I do sometime I do attack a person. Okay. Um,
34:08 I listen without try to listen with four again. I listen without interrupting at sometime as as the mayor. That's kind of hard because it's my goal to keep the
34:17 keep the meeting moving and everything and I have to interrupt. Okay. Some at some points and I think some people
34:25 don't uh at times I don't think some people realize this and everything that I do interrupt and um but I one of the
34:32 things I always try to do is sit and listen to everybody and what they have to say until they finish. Uh but I do interrupt sometimes when I have to. I
34:41 think that's one of my my and I even talk to my lawyer about things like that. But u um and like I say, I always
34:48 try to challenge the idea and I think and what aggravates me about being challenging ideas. I'm challenge the
34:56 idea not the person. But when I don't hear truth in some of the ideas that that's coming across, that upset me
35:04 because I I try to be honest and truthful about everything I say for you.
35:08 If I have some bad information and doubt that I'm putting out there, that that aggravates me. Um, so if I don't hear truth coming out of what a person is
35:17 saying, that that get a little aggravating and that's when I may may u
35:24 I can't stand untruth. Okay. And I always try to stay focus stay focused on on things. Um it's not it's not easy a
35:32 lot of time conversations going on and different things going and I always want people to say what's on their mind and
35:40 everything as they probably say this and I'm I'm constantly fine is the so-called
35:48 three minute rule we got. See I I don't believe in that. We are council members.
35:53 As I say to them, I don't mind how many minutes you take to get your point across. Okay? Take that time. I don't want to put a limit on it, you know, and
36:02 that's that's kind of restricting a person as I'm concerned. Uh, and that's what we're here for because we can't talk outside of the outside.
36:10 So, how can I hear what you're saying if I got a three minute on and you can't get your full point across? So, um,
36:18 things like that kind of kind of bothers me. Um,
36:22 but I I can never I don't think I ever rate myself as a five in in any of these because I I'm always looking for ways to improve.
36:33 That's one of the things I've always did in life and through my training and all this. I know
36:41 I said say to people sometime ABC's ABCs when it come to communicate look what it mean ABC accuracy gravity and clarity. I
36:49 like to be accurate very accurate with information. Uh get it across as quick as and as clear as you can and move on.
36:57 Okay.
36:59 them the things I I try to focus on. Of course, that's come from my training in the Air Force because that's what we I'm taught in the classes I was in.
37:08 Well, I appreciate number one and you kicking it off. Number two, just role modeling, the courage to to demonstrate or share some of those self-awareness or some of those triggers that you have.
37:18 So, it's a good thing to hear that you're aware of your triggers, right?
37:22 So, you know the things that would typically get you to respond in a certain way. And so, I appreciate you shared that openly. Anybody else have
37:30 something that they want to share and say, "Hey, when I look at this self assessment, I can say that this is kind of where I stand or this is maybe where
37:38 I stand to grow or where I shine in these principles.
37:45 I could work on myself.
38:06 public office in public for me.
38:31 Anybody else want to share?
38:36 Again, this is an opportunity not only understand like an audience, but really to share among each other that this is,
38:43 hey, this is where I know that I can improve. This is where I think I bring strength to our group. It's an opportunity for you guys to understand
38:51 each other a little bit better as it relates to what those triggers are.
38:56 Sometimes just hearing that someone's aware of a behavior, it's like, it's good to know that you you see that that you do that. Um, you have something else?
39:07 Well,
39:10 And another another thing I use what I call Q-tip. Okay.
39:15 You know, and that that that actually stand for quit taking it personal. Even though when I'm getting I mean I'm about to steal that one. May I Nobody taught me that one.
39:25 And and one of the things about we are public figures and people going to say things and they going to come after you and I get attacked all the time and everything. One of the things I keep telling myself, quit taking it personal.
39:37 You gonna always have people disagreeing with you. I don't care what you do.
39:40 Somebody gonna disagree with you. And I don't take it personally. You entitled to your dis your your opinion. And I always try to accept your opinion
39:47 whether like it or not. And that's where, as I said before, where we can Okay, now we got a disagreement. Let's come together and see if we can work out this disagreement without, you know,
39:58 killing one another, whatever. But I I that's one of the things I I do throughout since I've been elected or
40:05 public officials. not to take it personal and I started realizing that even before I
40:11 became uh elected official because when I used to sit in this council and watch people do things it seemed like it was
40:18 so much personal things going on all the time even now it's personal feeling that's being being displayed a lot and I
40:26 even know I just say hey I'm not going to take it personal and I think that's one of the things elected officials need to always understand hey people going to
40:34 spit their their opinion But you can't take it personally. Okay. Stay focused.
40:39 As M. Strange say, you got to stay focused on what what what you're trying to accomplish. Okay. And not let the personal opinion get to you.
40:50 And it's I know it's hard.
40:52 No, I can only imagine how hard it is to be in in your positions and and not take it personal. And I think really it's a
41:01 discipline of how do we separate people from the problem and keep the focus on whatever the issue is? How do we separate people from the problem? And
41:09 sometimes that's hard because we have other little things or communication things that creep in. And so we're going to talk a little bit about the type of
41:16 threats or enemies to really professional disagreement or having radical respect. So, we'll
41:24 spend a little time talking about that and then that's how this book kind of comes into conversation as well because it is a lot harder to take not take it
41:32 personal especially if you recognize that somebody's bias is showing somebody's prejudice is showing somebody is demonstrating a bullying behavior.
41:41 It's kind of hard not to take those type of things personal. So, we'll dive a little bit into that. Um, but really I
41:49 think self-awareness is the root to everything. If we can recognize that because a lot of disrespect is unintentional in terms of stress leaks
41:58 into our tone. So maybe because I'm stressed out, I said it in a way or or overemphasize the word and it came across as disrespectful, but most people
42:07 don't get out of their bed to come in to disrespect anyone. Um it's I like to say it's leakage sometimes like stress leaks
42:16 into their tone, frustration maybe leaks into the their word choice. assumptions may have leaked into their
42:23 interpretation or understanding of the conversation, but not all, not discounting all, but a lot of disrespect
42:32 sometimes is unintentional. If we give people grace, if we assuming positive intent, that stress leaked in,
42:40 frustration leaked in, but self-awareness, it starts with our ability to recognize the things that tend to trigger us. I tell people this
42:48 story and it's kind of funny, but I grew up in Miami and I grew up in not the Miami that's, you know, glamorized
42:56 um or South Beach. I grew up in Liberty City, Miami. City.
43:01 Yeah. I I grew up, if you've ever watched the show First 48 Miami um where the detective show where you have 48
43:09 hours to solve the murders. I grew up in a very rough neighborhood. I've seen blood clean off of sidewalks and people
43:17 fall all the time. And so I recognize that one of my triggers is when people do a lot of hand movement very close to me. So if this is an escalated
43:26 conversation and you move your hands a lot, I become triggered and I am 20, 30 years removed from Miami and it takes me
43:34 right back to that environment. And I posture myself differently. I sit up differently. I'm on my feet. and I don't know if you're going to swing or not,
43:42 but I'm gonna be ready.
43:44 But I recognize that about myself because that's one of my triggers. Does that mean when I'm having a normal discussion at work and I just happen to
43:52 be speaking to someone who moves their hands a lot that I should be offended by their hand movement? No. I recognize
44:00 that that's one of my triggers. That's something that I'm sensitive to and this person doesn't have intention to disrespect me or to make me feel threatened. it's a trigger that I have.
44:10 So self-awareness is understanding those things about yourself that may trigger you and maybe the person isn't intentionally doing something towards
44:19 you, but you may have a sensitivity there. And so that's why I always like to take back these type of conversations to emotional intelligence because it's
44:28 really important that we understand who we are, what our tendencies are, what our patterns are, and where we in self-management. How have we grown? I
44:36 know when I was uh working If I had a elevated person move their hands a lot,
44:42 they talking to me, we're having a discussion, I'll say, "Hey, can we go and sit down and finish this discussion?" Just so we can sit at a table, we're across from each other. It
44:49 creates distance, they can have a little animation, but I have that table there.
44:54 I feel a little bit more comfortable and relaxed. And then I would have that conversation. But that's me managing
45:01 my own trigger versus making it their responsibility. Hey, you can't talk with your hands.
45:07 I would tell a person not to communicate the way that they've always communicated. Um, I recognize what my trigger was and adapting and managing
45:15 it. So, that's a little bit about emotional intelligence. Let's go into defining respect and honesty. And I like to keep the answers on the board. It
45:22 makes it flow a little bit better so nobody's having to to guess the def, you know, the definitions. What we really
45:30 want to distinguish between because I know we use these words fluently. But for the purpose of our discussion today,
45:37 respect is really about how we treat each other, right? It's how we treat each other. Honesty is about how we test
45:44 ideas, right? So if we had to define them, respect is acknowledging someone's inherent worth and humanity regardless
45:52 of agreement. I don't have to agree with you to have to respect you. Honesty is speaking the truth about your perspective concerns and the tradeoffs you see.
46:04 So we really want to do both. So what isn't it right? Like I said before and I'm going to keep saying this isn't about always having to agree. This isn't
46:13 about silence. This isn't about avoiding the difficult topics.
46:19 And in honestly this isn't about being blunt or harsh. you know, well, I'm telling it like it is, and it's okay to to a certain degree degree to tell it,
46:29 but it's not an excuse for disrespect. You're allowed to feel a certain way.
46:36 You're allowed to convey your perspective,
46:39 but when you're when you're being harsh or being blunt, you're teetering over into disrespect. There's a way to convey
46:47 your message and leave people intact and still exude respect. So being honest,
46:54 but also being respectful.
46:57 What do you guys think about respect and honesty as the foundation for communication in this environment?
47:10 What else? Is there something missing?
47:12 Do you think what causes maybe tension is not these two things? Is there something else? Well, well, for me, I like I say,
47:20 respect me mean everything. And I try to respect everybody, but then again, uh when you come honesty is is the key
47:28 factor to me. When you when you're being dishonest, you're going to lose my respect. Okay? Honesty is the key to me.
47:36 Uh and always being honest about every everything. you going to get my respect whether I like what you're saying or whatever but long as you being honest
47:43 honest with me uh you going to gain my respect but when you stop being honest uh you lose my respect as I always even
47:51 teach my kids and people around me is hey um honesty is the key key to life tell you tell somebody you're going to
47:59 do something do it if you can't tell them you can't always be honest about where where you are about your feelings and everything
48:07 now being honest whether I like you or not and everything. I'm going be honest with you. I tell you how I feel. That may not stop me from having to work with
48:16 um for example, when I was in the military, I used to tell my bosses all the time, "Hey, all I ask for is respect. And I'm going be honest with you, when it come to decision making,
48:27 give me the opportunity. Give me input."
48:30 Okay? Whether you like it or not, I'm going give you the input. And of course, you have the ultimate decision to make.
48:36 And whatever that decision is, I'm going support it. Okay. Whether I like it or not, because we work as a team.
48:42 That's how I look at this council. I may not like some of your ideas or what they saying, but when it comes down in the
48:49 decision made, I'm I'm going to try to work with it as much as possible. So, I'm going to ask a forward question. Yes.
48:57 Do you believe that honesty is required in order to get respect?
49:03 I do. for me. For me, if you're not, as I said before, if you not, if you're not being honest with me, you're not g I'm not gonna give you much I'm not gonna give you as much I'll put it this way,
49:12 as much respect. Okay? I accept you, but you know, you're not gonna get much respect if you coming to me being dishonest. Okay? I'm not going to be
49:21 dishonest with you. And uh so don't be dishonest with me. Honesty is the key is the key factor to me.
49:28 And I and I I appreciate your transparency in that because one of the things that we're going to do in this meeting is we're going to try and grow
49:35 our our our perspective on what respect is because radical respect is about birthright respect. It's about respecting respect that isn't earned.
49:46 It's about a certain level of of respect that I have for individuals regardless whether they earned it or not, regardless of if they're honest or not.
49:55 It's about how do I treat people irregardless of how they behave. And so radical respects really challenges that
50:03 thought process on in order for us to get to a place where we can have civil disagreement and disagree in a way that allows us to continue to be productive,
50:13 we have to kind of elevate to this space where respect doesn't necessarily have to be earned. There's a such thing as
50:20 performance respect and birthright respect. But the thing is for me, I'm going to respect it. When I first meet you, I'm going to give you all the respect in the world.
50:28 That's birthright respect. Right.
50:30 Right. You going to have you gonna always get my respect. Okay. And that's that's a give me. I'm always because I always one of the things I always say, I
50:38 want to treat people the way I want to be treated. Okay? So, I'm always respect you. But when you stop being honest,
50:44 start being dishonest with me, you gonna lose some of my respect. Okay? I'm sorry. That's just me.
50:49 Well, I appreciate your honesty. And so what does it look like when someone loses your respect? Because I think we can think and feel certain things, but
50:57 when we activate those things and we put them into action, emotion, then it becomes a different story. And again,
51:04 that this book here, it really really talks about how do we maintain respect even when it isn't earned or even when
51:12 it's not deserving? Because there are people that we probably feel that don't and let's not talk about the extreme cases because you know oh they did this
51:20 to a child like oh okay that's extreme we don't but normal professional environment what is our tolerance level for
51:29 respect or what is our triggers to withdraw respect is what we have to identify well for me even when I may not when I
51:39 you lost some of my respect I'm going still treat you with respect okay Okay.
51:44 Regardless, okay, even though I may not truthfully uh believe everything you're saying anymore, I'm going still try to treat you with respect and and I do it
51:53 all the time because, you know, I get I get blasted out and especially in the political.
51:57 So, there's an internal and an external It goes back to the thing where I say Q-tips, you know, where you come in and you do all this. Do I have all the
52:06 respect for you anymore when you say these things to me? No. But I'm going still give you that respect if you come to me and talk. I'm going try to give you the respect and I'm of course I'm
52:14 going still be honest with you where I feel feel about it is one of my old saying in life I'm gonna tell you how I feel out front so you don't stick out
52:21 behind okay and everything you know so I I want to be honest with you up front and let you know where I stand and where
52:28 we stand but still let's let's do this thing together I'm going respect you we have to be uh that has to come around so
52:36 I want to show you guys this other page right here and I again I appreciate the dialogue and the interaction I really appreciate it may I want to draw your
52:44 attention in here of the different imbalances that are created based off of the level of respect and the level of
52:51 honesty that's being given. Remember when we think about honesty this is our ability to how we test ideas and and
52:59 speak honest perspective. And when we think about respect this is how we treat each other or view each other
53:05 irregardless of our honest feedback. So this is a little matrix and so I'm going to describe the four and I'll stand up
53:12 for a second. All right. So high honesty, low respect environments. These are environments that can become very sense and personal because remember high
53:21 honesty meaning we're telling it like it is. We're being very truthful. We are given a lot of respect but we don't
53:28 respect you know some of the people the respect is kind of low in the room. So it creates tense and personal environments. There's interruptions,
53:37 there's sharp tones, there's defensiveness. High honesty, low respect.
53:45 Low honesty, low respect. So meaning we're not telling the truth or we're silenced because we're playing nice.
53:53 We're trying to be polite. So if that person says it, I don't want to challenge.
53:59 I don't really have respect for them. So we're going to have a little side conversation behind the back. There's confusion. There's
54:07 the the direction is kind of murky because again there's low respect in the environment. They don't feel very respected but also people aren't really
54:15 telling the truth because they're trying to keep a low honesty low respect environment. So let's move over here. High respect,
54:23 low honesty. So this is very polite but vague. The real issues stay under the ground. And this is where you have a lot of rework or delayed accountability
54:31 because again respect is high. We're going to treat each other very, very well. Very well. We treat you very well,
54:38 but again, we don't want to rock the boat. So, you can't get things done because everybody's too busy trying to be nice, right? So, that's high respect,
54:46 but low honesty. And then what we all want to shift to is high honesty, high respect. You want to have clear, candid,
54:53 and civil conversation.
54:56 Want everyone to again bring all those different perspectives into the room.
55:00 So, honest communication, but the respect level is global decisions, you get public trust,
55:06 you get momentum. And now I'm going to ask a pretty interesting question.
55:12 I want you to vote. Which quadrant best represents the current council?
55:20 You believe you're in a high honesty, low respect, low honesty, low respect. High respect, low honesty, high honesty,
55:28 high respect. And I'm going to go back so you can see the definition while you're voting.
55:32 Sorry, I'll come back if you need to scan.
55:46 It should be a different. Yeah, the scanning. Oh, okay.
56:01 And if you guys want to look at the matrix, it's on page six.
56:05 So that'll help you as you're answering the question, which quadrant.
56:14 And I'll give you guys a moment to vote and then I'll refresh the screen. But which quadrant do you believe currently represents our current council?
56:49 Looks like everybody is done and unfortunately I have to come out and come back in. You know the drill.
57:04 Bring it back.
57:16 All right.
57:27 All right. So, looks like we got a little bit of audience participation. Oh, boy. Um,
57:34 thank you, I guess.
57:37 Um, first of all, again, thank you guys for answering the question. Anybody want to open up discussion about that vote,
57:45 about that perspective?
57:51 We got 71% of our vote feels that we're in a low honesty, low respect environment.
57:58 I'll open it up if I Thank you, mayor. I appreciate it.
58:04 And I actually get the low honesty, low respect.
58:08 Okay. And I've been on this council for six years and this is probably one of the worst ones I've been on so far when it come to
58:17 respect and honesty. Okay? And I'm not saying saying that because of the people that be
58:25 but our politics and our our elected officials have become so wrapped up in in in coming in on with certain agendas
58:32 and things like this and we we're not we're not truly being honest and doing the best thing for the people that that
58:39 elected us. uh we say one thing and out there on the campaign trail, but then we get get on the dis and get get
58:46 elected and we go a whole different route and it's not not being true honesty. And that's that's what I see a lot, not just here, but up all over the
58:54 country and everything because we're so we so wrapped up in trying as elected officials now, we try to get so wrapped
59:01 up in satisfying a handful of people that helped us get elected and the ideas and everything that we can't when we get up on the in the position, we're not
59:10 being honest with ours and really looking at everything because we already got this PC uh notion that hey, this is
59:18 what we're going to do rather than taking a a good look at the situation and seeing what's best. Okay.
59:25 Okay.
59:26 And that's that's and that's what I'm seeing. Like I say, I every I've been mayor for six years and every year I've been the been the mayor, I've had a
59:34 different different council every year and this is this is probably to me this probably the one that I I say has the
59:41 less honesty and and respect for each other than any of them been associated.
59:46 No, I can't say that. I say the previous previous one because we just changed in November was the most disrespectful and
59:54 least honest about but it's still kind of carrying over right now.
1:00:03 Yeah. uh as a person who's the newest on the council here, but uh as someone
1:00:09 who's watched councils in the past, um I think I looked at the outcomes of these two
1:00:18 quadrants and I I think those are outcomes that have been in existence
1:00:26 prior to our current council, maybe have been exacerbated in our current uh in the
1:00:32 last couple of years, but have been out there for a while. Um, in terms of
1:00:40 stalled votes or confusion back and forth, um, staff staff whiplash,
1:00:50 I I I can't count how many times up there and sitting out here, I've heard staff say,
1:00:56 "What direction you want us to go?"
1:01:00 um community frustration and confusion along with that. Um and I and I say all
1:01:08 of that because I don't uh what I want to say next has I I want it to be not specific to just the people who are at
1:01:16 this table. But I think it is a general direction that we've gone as a community
1:01:23 in that we've never really establish a strategic direction for the city. We have plans. We have plans for downtown.
1:01:33 We have plans for a comprehensive plan.
1:01:36 We have plans for uh Wellness Way. But what are we really
1:01:43 strategically working for has a community and how does what is in front of us is
1:01:53 it ministral meaning we have to do it but it really doesn't have anything to do with that so let's get those things done I kind of consider that to be like
1:02:01 consent agenda and then what are the things that really apply to that that We need we need to have a really earnest, honest,
1:02:14 respectful conversation about how it fulfills that direction or if it fills fulfills that direction and then where
1:02:23 do we go from there? Um and and so I don't have the answer necessarily to
1:02:33 that. I think that there are some things we might be able to do, but it I think it is something honestly that has
1:02:40 existed for quite some time and it just maybe has exacerbated because it has existed for quite some time.
1:02:50 Anybody else? Yeah. No assignment.
1:02:54 Let me go back and comment. I've been associated with this council now I don't know since 2020 2020 2005
1:03:03 or over somewhere in there started coming um and one of the things I used to really admire about old councils when I used to
1:03:11 sit out here is the fact that I used to be able to see the council members sit up there and they have disagreements but they always had respect for each other.
1:03:18 It was always were able to work with through their disagreement and I used to say it was great. Yeah, we have people come up and and say things and the
1:03:26 comment and everything, but very selom did I see any really disrespect for one another regardless of how they felt.
1:03:32 And um I know Mr. Bane say I know he hasn't been around here as long as I have seen all this, but it goes back to what I was saying before. uh our
1:03:41 political world have become so polarized and everything and we we so worried about people out here that that's
1:03:49 supporting us and what they saying and everything that now now uh our elected officials are getting getting to the point where hey they feel like they just
1:03:56 have to always fight one another and go against one another instead of sitting down and working together. But I I can remember and I never thought about being a council member or running a council,
1:04:06 but I used to be in this council chamber every Tuesday night and watching them council and I always admired admired the way they work together because I had
1:04:13 seen other councils where that didn't work, you know, and everything. One of the things I've already respected by by
1:04:20 our previous council and around 2017 2018 when I started noticing that change, okay? You know, and it started
1:04:29 becoming more polarized and it's gotten gotten worse over the years and last few years since I've been on the council, I've seen it even getting worse.
1:04:37 But what we can't thank you, mayor,
1:04:39 first, but what we can't ignore is that the world has changed.
1:04:42 Yes, it's changed. There's a lot there are macro things that have happened and the way we live, the way we interact with each other has changed globally,
1:04:50 right? So there has been this evolution of how people behave and how people treat each other. However,
1:04:57 when we think about respect and honesty,
1:04:59 that's going to be the foundation for how we're going to move things forward.
1:05:02 Like what's the answer? The answer is respect and honesty.
1:05:07 The answer is how do we get on the same page, shared vision around respect and
1:05:15 honesty and then that becomes a foundation in the mindset for how we do business going forward.
1:05:27 Go for it.
1:05:30 So twice we have had So let me preface with on the issue of respect.
1:05:42 I respect your position. I'm gonna stop talking. Okay. Unless you want me to send it.
1:05:51 The mayor's seat is responsible for running the meetings,
1:05:55 enforcing the rules of the position you chose to run for. I did not. No interest in ribbon cutings. I don't want to run.
1:06:06 put that out. So, I respect you for that because I don't want that job.
1:06:10 But we have rules and twice they've come before us for consideration to change them. And
1:06:18 neither time did we have a majority of this said we want to change.
1:06:26 We have other rules that I've brought up like enforcement and you've said now three times you're
1:06:35 going to do what you want to do. It doesn't matter what the rules are. You think we need more time.
1:06:43 You think you have the right to get an endorsement. These rules don't matter.
1:06:50 Now, for me, if I'm being honest, as a person who likes rules,
1:06:56 and I'm happy to change rules. I think agreement is more important than rules.
1:07:00 I think we need to be in agreement. But we have rules that we've all had a chance to change,
1:07:06 and that none of us did, but you don't enforce them.
1:07:12 So, I've often questioned, do I talk too much? People tell me, you need to talk more. That's why we elected you.
1:07:20 and then I look at the video and think I've talked too much.
1:07:25 But sometimes I feel like I have to talk because there's so much talk that either I haven't made my point because there's still more talking.
1:07:39 And so I sit here and say, why do we have rules if we're not going to follow them?
1:07:48 And when I bring it up, there's four other people sitting next to me who don't say, "Well, Mr. Mayor, that's what our rule says." So, I don't feel like I have the votes to enforce the rules. So,
1:08:00 in many ways, I feel handcuffed because I'm just one vote. If we don't want the
1:08:07 rules, then I think we should change the rules. And and then to bring up a specific point,
1:08:15 I brought it up once. I don't want to belabor it. It's just I want to be clear. My frustration with what happened with the 6:30 vote is that I was the
1:08:24 swing vote and the public has clearly said that they want 6:30 meetings.
1:08:30 Instead of enforcing our rules, got emotional, in my opinion, we let the public down.
1:08:38 And I feel like we failed them. So I sit here and say we have rules.
1:08:44 We're not enforcing them. If we were enforcing them, we could have quicker meetings. We had quicker meetings, we could have 6:30 meetings.
1:08:52 But then I'm being targeted when we talk about meetings behind closed doors and what's
1:08:59 said in the public, you know, oh, they don't want 6:30 meetings.
1:09:06 We can't have 6:30 meetings if we go until midnight. And as long as we don't enforce the rules, we're going to go until midnight.
1:09:12 And it just seems like chaos to me.
1:09:16 And I've already stated I don't desire to be here. So it feels like I'm wasting my time and that's what I'm bringing to
1:09:23 the table. So when I get tense or I cut you off, I apologize and I'm working on that. But if you can receive me and
1:09:32 understanding, I don't want to waste anybody's time, including my own.
1:09:38 So that's frustrating for me. And I just think if you don't want to enforce the rules, you shouldn't be in that seat. That's my judgment of it.
1:09:48 I'm being honest with you that you think I'm dishonest and I respect that or that you don't respect me because I'm dishonest. You've never said that to me.
1:09:56 So, if I'm part of the reason why you think this this council's so awful, I would rather you say it to me because I'm new on this council, too. So, if you feel that way because of the president,
1:10:06 that's fine. But, I'm taking what you say about us and this being a terrible council. I am looking at I've only been here for for 16 months and I would
1:10:14 rather you be I'm Tim Tim. What's Oh gosh, he's What's the county commissioner? Tim wor.
1:10:23 Thank you. He talks about the skunk on the table. You asked for this because we're not getting along very well. We're doing a great job, but we're not helping
1:10:30 you. So, I'm putting this I'm putting a skunk on the table. There might be other skunks. Feel free to put your skunk here.
1:10:36 Let me let me Can I address that? And here it is. Yes.
1:10:41 As I said before, I used to sit here and I watch I watched the previous council before I was up there. Watch
1:10:48 meeting used to be at 6:00 or 7:00 in the evening. Okay.
1:10:52 And the council members, I mean, I was in here in here to 12 1:00 in the morning. They didn't care. They if they had to be here to 12 1:00 in the morning
1:11:01 and they thought seven, they had be they took care of the business because that that's what they was elected to do. Now to go back to this.
1:11:08 Yeah. We we've you've come up and bring change talk about changing rules and that's one of the reason I I kind of look and say okay ever since
1:11:17 you've been on the council basically we've been everything used to come before us by changing the rules. We have had rules set there and we've been going
1:11:26 by these rules for years. The 6:30 we changed that. Okay. You want to put the three-minute rule in. We never had a
1:11:33 three-minute rule on council members. to the rule say no it wasn't the council member council members has never been limited we put it
1:11:41 in there that's what it says now because you put it in but this is the thing we came up here and you start changing all these roles okay and I feel and to be
1:11:50 honest I feel like that's to suit you personally okay as I've al often said when you ran for the position you knew
1:11:58 what it required okay when I ran for mayor I knew it meant I had to run the meeting I knew this I knew you know, and everything. If I didn't want to do that,
1:12:07 I wouldn't have ran for the physician. I knew what time I had to be here. Okay?
1:12:12 Right now, a matter of fact, I told somebody just the other day with with the time we start counseling, there's no way I would have ever ran for mayor because ain't no way when I was working,
1:12:21 I could have I could have did this job at no 3:00 in the afternoon.
1:12:26 Okay? But we change all this to fit our p our personal our personal lives instead of go ahead
1:12:34 and I disagree with that. I don't care what time the meeting is.
1:12:39 So for you to say that and direct it at me, it's not true. If you think that it's true, your belief is based on a falsehood. It doesn't matter to me
1:12:48 whether these meetings are at the only time that I care about is before noon because I homeschool my children between noon and 10 o'clock at night. I'm here
1:12:56 for you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you. I'm here for the citizens of Clermont. But no one's ever asked me.
1:13:01 So, I'll tell you. I think bad decisions are made after 8:30 p.m. And I think there's a lot of support for that. So,
1:13:09 it doesn't matter whether I'm willing to be here until midnight, 1:00. The brain doesn't function well. And we're dealing with a $200 million budget. So, we need to run effective and efficient meetings.
1:13:20 that my recollection is that 3:00 rule was in there when I got here or the three minute rule was here when I got here, but I'm not being effective in communicating what I'm trying to say,
1:13:31 which is we have rules and you've acknowledged at this meeting and others you don't like them, so you're not going to enforce them. But
1:13:39 because I respect your position as the mayor, I don't know what to do when you violate the rules. Do I interrupt you?
1:13:49 Do do I seek to enforce them? Do I have support from my counsel to enforce them?
1:13:54 What do I do in that situation? So, I say nothing and and it I'm off balance. But I I want
1:14:03 to bring the conversation forward, right? First of all, you that may have felt intense. I I don't know
1:14:10 what the emotional I can only imagine emotionally what you guys are probably feeling, but I'm sitting here like,
1:14:16 "Wow, this is a great display of honesty, right? This is a great display because honesty really is about the quality and the integrity of the
1:14:23 decision-making process. It's that ability to have that conversation and speak your truth. So, I don't want anybody to think I'm sitting here like,
1:14:31 "Oh my god." No, I'm just like, "Okay, this is honest." Yeah,
1:14:34 I appreciate it. This is the way the dialogue goes. Honest conversation.
1:14:39 Respect is how we protect the relationship and the environment.
1:14:42 Respect shows up in our tone and our body language, how we listen, how we interpret that information, how we sit
1:14:50 on it and allow it to penetrate us and and then how we respond to it. And so that's why both are important. That's
1:14:58 why the honesty and the respect. So I appreciate the dialogue that just took place. Hey, this is what I feel. This is what I observe. This is what I see. This is my perspective. This is what I think.
1:15:08 Because by being honest and putting into the room now I know how to manage this relationship because I understand your
1:15:14 truth. Respect is how do you respond to that? How do you treat people when they disagree? How do you maintain order? And
1:15:23 sometimes rules are necessary in order to better demonstrate respect.
1:15:28 Um and so I'm not going to get into the technicality of the three minutes or not or who should do what.
1:15:34 Not not my job. That's above me. But but what I will say is there is a place for
1:15:41 rules and rules are some or norms so that you can leverage that as a as a as a way of being respectful. I it's a way
1:15:49 of demonstrating equity or equality among everyone when I say this norm is in place so that everybody has a fair chance. That kind of thing. So, I could
1:15:58 see where the rules could play into a demonstration of respect and and I definitely understand the open forum.
1:16:07 Like, I understand the ability to allow people to be completely honest in saying I don't want them to have to stop at three minutes if it's their honest
1:16:14 opinion. I want them to feel free. So, I I understand both perspective. You led into this meeting about this shared understanding or this shared vision
1:16:23 about how to move forward. That's where we have to get on honesty and respect.
1:16:28 We have to say, "I'm okay with you speaking your truth. I'm okay with you being honest."
1:16:34 But it has to be respectful and respectful has to be actionoriented.
1:16:39 It's not that I in my head, yeah, I have a lot of respect for you. It's radical respect. So, I'm going to move to this page. Radical respect. And if you go to page seven, it's it's elevated respect.
1:16:51 It means that every person deserves respect simply because they are human.
1:16:56 Not because of their title, not because their agreement with you or not because of their performance. It's challenging ourselves to get out of performative
1:17:03 respect. It's challenging and it's hard sometimes. It's hard when you feel disrespected. It's hard if you felt betrayed. It's hard when you feel like
1:17:12 it's four against one to have a a heightened level of respect.
1:17:17 But radical respect positions allows you to have a mental disposition
1:17:24 of birthright respect. And again, not just mentally in your actions. I am going to treat you this way because I
1:17:32 have a high level of respect for you regardless of your performance.
1:17:39 It's hard for some people. It creates a little dissonance for some people. It takes a lot of growth and uncomfortability to get to a place to where I'm going to give respect when you don't earn it.
1:17:50 I'm going to align my actions in respectful behavior even when I don't like what your honest feedback is.
1:18:04 That's the challenge. That's what we have to get mastery of. This is how we're going to move into professional disagreement or productive disagreement
1:18:13 is when we can come to that that mental conclusion on birthright respect versus performative respect. Right? So if you
1:18:22 turn to page eight, we're not going to go fully into discussion here, but in my attempt to be honest um and wow, we've ate up a lot of time.
1:18:33 Yeah. In my attempt to, you know, to be very,
1:18:37 I would say, transparent before today, I have sat and I've viewed almost six months, maybe five months worth of city council meetings, right?
1:18:49 While I'm working out, while I'm driving in the car. And so, I've just listened.
1:18:56 I've just I've just listened. Um feel like I know some of you guys better than you know, you guys don't know me, but I know you.
1:19:03 But really just because I thought it was important for me to just really listen in as a facilitator of this type of discussion to really get an idea of
1:19:11 patterns or behaviors or the things that are most important or the things that come up and and I can recognize some of the triggers like the minute somebody
1:19:18 says something like oh this person and that person will say something and so so I I want you to know that I studied this and the statement that I'm about to make
1:19:26 I'm not making it just throwing it out there. There are three enemies to radical respect. There are three things that will get in the way in your ability
1:19:34 to offer birthright respect. It'll leave you in performative respect, meaning I'm only respecting you if you respect me and all that type of stuff. It'll leave
1:19:42 you in that place if you if if if you don't recognize these enemies,
1:19:49 their bias, our unconscious assumptions,
1:19:53 and I put examples there. It's prejudice.
1:19:57 These are our conscious attitudes and policies that create unfair barriers.
1:20:03 Um, it's bullying and people think bullying is hitting. No, it's using your power to intimidate or silence others,
1:20:11 but those are the three enemies. You'll find that up. I got this book for everyone just for your continued
1:20:18 learning. Um, but it talks about how to recognize those behaviors and it gives you a a specific framework of how to
1:20:26 formulate your conversations to challenge when you hear a bias statement, you use an an an I response.
1:20:35 If you hear a prejudice statement, you use a it response, meaning you know,
1:20:39 refer back to policy. If you hear a bullying statement, you you use a you statement. So, it gives you like what I love about it is it gives you a very
1:20:47 practical way to challenge those type of ideas. Being honest, I watch videos and I saw examples of all three.
1:20:57 That's keeping it real. I saw examples of all three in the footage that I watch. So, I'm not saying that it macro
1:21:05 level. No, I'm saying that I watched videos for almost six months of meetings every second and fourth Tuesday and I
1:21:14 saw examples of threats to radical respect being displayed. So I definitely want you guys to take on this book. It
1:21:21 wasn't enough to do this full discussion in the 90 minutes. So that's why I felt it would be appropriate to give the book, give the worksheet just for some
1:21:30 uh information and then if there's an opportunity to follow up and take a deeper dive, I would love it. I ask a question. Yes, please.
1:21:37 The the three enemies, are those general enemies or are those enemies that you've identified with your research of the meetings and of the council?
1:21:48 So the three enemies are in the bookeneral. Okay. Okay.
1:21:52 So, what I did was I viewed the video footage to see if I saw any of them present, any of the behaviors present.
1:21:59 And I saw examples of all three.
1:22:02 Gotcha. It wasn't an outcome of watching. It was you were looking for those. Okay.
1:22:08 I don't know if I was necessarily looking for Well, maybe I have a trained eye for them.
1:22:11 Yeah. Sorry. No, I was Yeah, you picked up on them. Sorry. Yeah.
1:22:17 Yeah. Thank you. Like I wasn't trying to look and no, I don't have a secret notated file or something on it, but because I'm trained to identify those
1:22:25 type of statements and behaviors, I they come to me a little bit more readily. The way I heard your question, Brian,
1:22:31 was are there more than these, and these are the three you saw, or are these the three that exist, and you saw all of them?
1:22:39 Yeah, the there these are the three that exist in this book. Mhm. And I saw I was able to observe examples of them.
1:22:52 Well, here's the thing. What I do appreciate is again the dialogue that happened today, the honest conversation and I do believe that you guys there are
1:22:59 good examples of respect and honesty that I observed as well. I think you guys, but again, I'm looking from outside. I don't know that there's a
1:23:07 truth that's different. But what I do like is you guys bring different perspectives into the room. It's not this unilateral like we all think about
1:23:15 it the same way. It's hey, but have we thought about it this way? And so those are good examples of honesty. And that's why I've made it a point to say this is
1:23:24 not about not having disagreement. This is about bringing continue to be honest and bring those different perspectives
1:23:31 into the room. Elevate the respect. How do we get to a radical respect level?
1:23:36 Because if we lead with a mindset that you don't necessarily have to earn my respect in this environment, I am going to treat you with respect. It'll show up
1:23:43 in our actions. Because respect listens a certain way.
1:23:49 It receives a certain way. It handles you with care. But if I don't respect you, then yeah, it's going to show up in
1:23:57 my tone. It's it's going to show up in my assumptions or my interpretation of what you said. And so it's really about
1:24:04 having that that that respect level. So here's what it looks like. We're acknowledging the different perspective.
1:24:11 So you may hear something like, "Hey, I hear council member I put Riviera concerns about the timing. Here's my
1:24:18 view on sequencing. It's I acknowledge you. I'm not dismissing it. I heard you.
1:24:24 Here's my perspective. Now I'm adding to it. I'm not saying but or don't." So I'm not dismissing. I'm just adding. Right?
1:24:32 It's little nuances like that allowing others to finish.
1:24:37 And again, one of the ways that people have done it in in in other ways is they do track the time because it allows for that fair participation because nobody
1:24:45 can say they did anything. We all had the same amount of time and maybe three minutes is too short. Maybe that's the part it needs to be a different amount
1:24:54 of minutes. Like I'm not sure again above my pay grade. But it is a form that you could use, a form that you could use in order to show respect. It's
1:25:03 using measured professional language. So always or never and things like that. So
1:25:11 the exaggeration. So it makes a person feel like the world is against them or they're the only one, you know, that does it. So how do we watch our
1:25:20 language? How do we reduce sarcasm? How do we again speak to the issue but not the individual?
1:25:27 So, what does honest leadership sound like? And I think you guys have that down pack like, hey, I see this differently and here's why. But notice
1:25:35 it's a lot of and instead of but it isn't a dismiss you or what you said wasn't
1:25:44 true. It's I hear exactly what you're saying. Allow me to add this perspective to it. So, how do we add that honest communication in or asking a question?
1:25:54 Can we explore another approach before we decide? And I heard great examples of that as well, like, well, can we can we
1:26:02 uh explore this? Do we have to make this decision today or I need more information? Those are good ways of demonstrating that honest leadership and wanting to make an informed decision.
1:26:15 One of the things that I think would be really good is to say, say it out loud,
1:26:18 I am challenging this proposal, not the person. Hey, I'm gonna challenge, you know, what you said, but I want to make it clear this isn't a challenge towards
1:26:26 you, Councilman Pearson. This is directed towards that. And so, it makes it clear in the room and allows that person to receive that and say, "Okay,
1:26:35 let me relax in my chair." You're about to make a statement. The statement isn't towards me. Now, when you make the statement, it needs to be about don't
1:26:42 don't disarm them to then to then come back and then challenge them. But this,
1:26:48 you know, it allows that person to disarm and allows you to focus on what the actual proposal is versus the
1:26:55 person. But saying it out loud helps to disarm the person and then allows them to listen with a different set of ears.
1:27:03 So this is the framework that I was talking about and I'm sorry if I'm going a little bit faster because I really want to be conscious of your time, but mayor has something. No, I was just
1:27:11 going to say I know you trying to rush because you had the hour 90 minute time limit and I don't I'm going to say that I don't have no problem instead of you
1:27:19 rushing through it because I think this is very important.
1:27:22 Go ahead and take your time if we go over the 90 minute that's okay with the rest of them.
1:27:26 Okay, we shouldn't be over by much but I appreciate that because I don't want to rush it and really this is the most and right this is the application part of it. This
1:27:34 is the framework that I was telling you guys about with again but I think it was important that we had the dialogue that we have and really talk about that
1:27:42 foundation because we again in order to move us in a different direction. We have to wrap our minds around radical respect.
1:27:52 What about if we had you come back to do follow up on it because as you said this is not enough time and we have other people here for the other things that we have on the agenda too.
1:28:03 Would that be doable with everybody if we continue at another date or time or whatnot?
1:28:10 I think it's great. I was gonna ask if she could stick around for the planning and voting. Yeah, I was out there in the audience.
1:28:19 Dream. Yeah, I was thinking that too.
1:28:23 If she could stay for planning and too I would love Yeah, I would love the opportunity to um to do more of these.
1:28:31 This is what I I love enjoy doing and helping teams to move forward and reach their goals by really getting some of
1:28:38 the murkiness out of the way this majority of the I just feel like I I just feel like you really coming in a lot more of the meat
1:28:47 of of this whole thing right now towards the end and I don't want you to have to rush to try to do that.
1:28:53 I I appreciate if I could at least finish this section here because this is that application. So thank you mayor. Um this is really because again some of the
1:29:01 knowledge is already there really it's elevating the foundation again getting to that radical respect level and recognizing that we can
1:29:10 respect someone in our heads but we have to respect them in our actions and how intentional are we about demonstrating that respect that we may have in our
1:29:18 head and if you genuinely have birthright respect meaning I respect you because you are a human regardless of
1:29:25 your performance then how do you show it, right? And so this lead framework really gives you practical application
1:29:32 of how to show it. And again, there's a copy in in uh the workbook, but what it does is you become triggered, right?
1:29:40 It's take a moment. You're going to len first, right? And not listen to respond,
1:29:45 but you need to hear the whole perspective. And so what this looks like is, and you can follow along, it's on page 10, no interruptions, no immediate
1:29:53 rebuttal, but focus on understanding versus reacting. So challenging yourself to some of us are fast thinkers like me.
1:30:01 I already have my answer ready before the person's done talking like it's a bad habit.
1:30:05 But I try my hardest to make myself pause and sometimes I will count to three before I reply especially with my
1:30:12 husband. I know he appreciates it to let him finish his thought because the answer is already in my head, right? But challenging ourselves to let me hold
1:30:21 back and let me really understand what has just been said to me. And so the first step is
1:30:28 let me listen first. Right? Take a deep breath. All right? And then next we're going to empathize. And empathy is again
1:30:35 it's a internal but it's a external as well. So empathy is okay I'm trying to understand but how does that person know that you're trying to understand? Right?
1:30:43 How do they know you're empathizing with them? It's in how you acknowledge their concern or their viewpoint. So I put it like an example there. I don't know if
1:30:52 this is too small for you to read, but it's things like I can see why you feel
1:30:59 that way. Um, I can I can I can imagine how hard that must be, but some level of acknowledgement that you hear their
1:31:08 concern, but you recognize it. You don't have to agree, though. It doesn't mean I agree with you. It means I understand where you get that perspective.
1:31:17 oftentimes where I talk about when I talk to people about where I grew up,
1:31:22 they didn't grow up in Miami. They don't know what it's like to see blood stains clean off a sidewalk. They don't know what it's like to go to a parade and
1:31:30 gunfire comes out and they run. Um, so they can't really say, "Oh yeah, like,
1:31:36 yep, I know exactly what it's like." But it's comforting when they say, you know,
1:31:40 I can only imagine what it must have been like as a child to grow up in that environment. And that's appreciated.
1:31:46 That's just acknowledging what I brought up without having to agree or say, "Oh,
1:31:50 yeah. I grew up there, too." No. All right. And then add is how you contribute your perspective. So, this is about not being dismissive. This is
1:31:59 about I hear you. And so hey, I understand your perspective on
1:32:06 more you know development of apartments and we have to consider this this this
1:32:14 and this and this and this and this and
1:32:22 more so of I hear your perspective and this is another perspective that we
1:32:31 offer. So, it's about adding to the conversation. And again, this is a mindset thing.
1:32:36 You think differently when you say I'm challenging someone versus I'm adding conversation,
1:32:42 right? Because challenging means opposition. Adding means I'm offering something. So,
1:32:49 I'm putting another perspective into the pot. And so, if we can shift our mindset to versus challenging your idea, I'm
1:32:57 adding an idea. It changes our tone. It changes the way that we lead the conversation and it changes the way we move it forward because right now we're
1:33:05 just making a contribution. The focus isn't in dismissing or challenging their idea is the focus is in adding a contribution.
1:33:14 And so that's where we add. And then last but not least is direct the conversation forward. And I think sometimes, especially in listening in
1:33:22 some of the the meetings and conversations, this is where, you know, we've listened, we said our perspective,
1:33:29 we've added things, and we acknowledge.
1:33:32 How do we direct the conversation forward? Because sometimes we kind of leave it with, well, this is my perspective. How do you pass the ball
1:33:40 back? How do you give another person an opportunity to come in and offer more perspective, but how do you propose a path forward? So this is where
1:33:50 you would guide towards a solution. This is where instead of just presenting a problem also presenting a a solution. So
1:33:57 I recognize that because we have done A B and and C it has now caused
1:34:06 this is going to be funny when I say the traffic on 50. Um here's how we move it forward.
1:34:14 And so in in some conversations we put out what the obstacle or the challenge is but leave it as a cliffhanger on what
1:34:22 the solution is or or or bringing a conversation forward. And so what happens is we start spinning our wheels and then now we're 30 minutes into a
1:34:31 conversation where it's all perspective and nobody has like passed it forward.
1:34:37 And so the lead framework helps you to position your communication in a in a in
1:34:44 a in a sequence that allows you to reduce tension.
1:34:50 Um stay focused on the outcomes and then be more productive because you're going to end your statement passing it forward. You're going to listen first.
1:34:58 You're going to empathize and acknowledge. Add your perspective and then direct the conversation forward. It takes practice in order to start getting
1:35:07 really good at passing or leading a conversation that way. Go ahead.
1:35:25 Okay. So, it'll be in the other packet cuz that's a copy of the PowerPoint. Oh, right in here. Okay.
1:35:31 Sorry. I put some different ones for us to read. Okay,
1:35:37 we can print out make it bigger. I provided look. We don't have 25 year old here.
1:35:44 It's hard to send. That's all. So, I got to get y'all the big print. I I got I'm send 25 in here. Okay.
1:35:51 I'mma send over the full page. Take it to the D. Okay. Okay.
1:35:56 No, but I'll do that. I'll email over the larger print of the PowerPoint and then that way you guys will have those particular slides. Thank you.
1:36:04 You're very welcome.
1:36:05 All right. And so as we begin to wrap up, let's talk about I want to give an example in the room and then we're going to talk about how do we put together the
1:36:12 foundation the application in order to get the outcomes that we want. So,
1:36:18 a council member challenges staff's request for an unexpected midyear budget increase for infrastructure repairs.
1:36:27 Right? I tried to think of something generic. I didn't want nobody to feel like I was dancing on something. I'm just like, no, I just picked something kind of random.
1:36:35 Um, but let's say a council member is challenging a request for a mid-year um
1:36:42 uh budget increase. All right. radical respect mindset.
1:36:48 How do we from a mindset standpoint go into this conversation respectfully and always put the answers on the board?
1:36:58 How do we go in? Say it again.
1:37:03 How do we mind? What mindset do we adapt to go into this conversation? So, let's say you're a council member is challenging the staff request for a
1:37:12 unexpected. So you're the council member and you want to challenge this request mindset. Where do we begin?
1:37:20 Looking at policy like you're saying there, right? Yep.
1:37:23 Not the person that's doing it. So then you have to open up your mind to be able to see that.
1:37:28 And you know that's going to show them respect and not go long-winded on it.
1:37:33 I'm like on a 15minute tangent on all over the place. Stay concise in your way where you get the following.
1:37:42 And and here's the thing. We're human,
1:37:44 right? We're we're human beings and and we have to remember that certain things are just easier said than done. That radical respect piece is separating the
1:37:53 person from the policy. And sometimes if I'm aggravated with the person,
1:37:58 everything that come out their mouth is is kind of like a problem already.
1:38:02 Yeah. And so the radical mindset is about this isn't about the person. This is the content of what they're explaining to me, right?
1:38:11 And so getting into the right foundation or the listening mode is practicing or becoming disciplined on how do I separate the information that
1:38:20 they're bringing me from the person that's saying it,
1:38:23 saying it. Yeah. because it may be a good idea, but maybe because of past things or their tendencies or or stuff that I recognize,
1:38:34 even a broken clock is right two times a day. You know, they're coming with something good and and we can't even hear them because of all the things that
1:38:42 have happened in the past. And that radical mindset, it's almost like spiritually when we say we renew our mind every day,
1:38:49 that's really what radical respect is about. It's about how do you come into this room and renew your mind each day and it's not to be ignorant towards
1:38:58 people's patterns or tendencies. You know what you know, but how can you sit in a position of this high level of and
1:39:06 I like that she calls it radical respect to where you can listen in a way that in
1:39:13 a in a way that shows or demonstrates respect to that person. You can hear their honest opinion in a way that's respectful. Can I say something on that?
1:39:22 I think that goes to having the mindset of I can learn from anyone regardless of whether I like them or
1:39:30 dislike them. And that's kind of the mindset I have been as I sit back and I observe to watch to listen to really hear because as you know with Sunshine
1:39:38 Laws we don't get to pick up the phone and talk. So we only time we get to talk is here. So I'm always in that mode of listening to try to have understanding of like that's how you came to that.
1:39:48 Okay. I may not agree but that's how you came to that. And so I think we have to have you have to have that mindset like even if I don't like you or like how you
1:39:57 are behaving I can still learn something from you by just listening. And that that takes some some time some growth
1:40:04 and some maturity with that. But I've learned that over the years of moving and stuff and watching people is like okay that's where they're coming from.
1:40:12 Okay that makes more sense. All right,
1:40:14 let me just focus on what they're saying instead of who they are and how they're showing up.
1:40:23 For me, uh, go back to something I heard you say earlier. You already had your mind made uh, your reply made up before
1:40:31 they asked the question. I try to eliminate that all the other and prepare myself to listen. Um especially in my position as the mayor
1:40:40 when when they come to me with something like this.
1:40:45 It's not my job to get into the budget and know every day operation. So one of the things I have to tell myself I have to listen to what the staff is saying me
1:40:54 because they work with it every day not me. Okay. So now I have to prepare myself and really listen to it and okay I'm hearing what you're saying and I
1:41:02 appreciate it. Of course, then I'm going back and say, "Okay, is that going to really benefit you? How is this going to really help you?" Um, is this what we
1:41:11 really need here? Because then I start analyzing, is that what we need? I might question it that that point. Hey, well,
1:41:19 what about this? What about that? But if you here and um, of course, this is where, you know, you I'm gathering information, I guess you can say.
1:41:27 Okay. and what's what's best and all before I make my decision and going down and was giving back feedback well what about this me I had some experience in
1:41:35 this or that area what about this and then in the end we hopefully we going to come up to come up to a decision what we
1:41:43 think is best and where we're going to work at before you know I work my way through all these different processes and first thing is I have to prepare
1:41:51 myself to listen to listen I like that yeah well regardless whether who bringing it to me, they coming to me
1:41:59 with a problem. Prepare yourself to listen. And that's one of the hardest things I think in communication because we can sit here talking about we listen,
1:42:05 but a lot of times listening, it take more than just sitting there. You know,
1:42:09 you have to prepare yourself to really hear what the person is saying. Okay?
1:42:13 And I and that's that's what I do. I know I get comments somebody, but you act like you're not pay. No, I'm really trying to hear what they're saying.
1:42:20 focusing and focusing on what they're saying and all and uh trying to go back in the
1:42:27 meantime I run into my my mind said hey if I haven't had any experience in this area is there any kind of thing I can contribute to them to maybe make this
1:42:35 decision a little bit better and everything and that's where I guess if you're looking at your lead and everything that's where empathize with with their position and then add to it
1:42:44 okay that's where I come back and get feedback and at the same time we can work out Um,
1:42:50 no, I I appreciate the reinforcement because what you're speaking to is that mindset that you have to have and what we're going to try and do going forward
1:42:57 is get that radical respect mindset of how we act on respect. So, I appreciate that. And then you went right into that application. Listen first.
1:43:07 Part of that application is how do we demonstrate to people that we're listening? What does it look like or what do we say? So in this example, we
1:43:15 say, "Okay, let me make sure I understand the full scope of this request."
1:43:18 That lets that person know that. And then you kind of paraphrase it back. Let me understand. Let me let me make sure I understand. So paraphrasing is a good way to say,
1:43:27 "Okay, I heard you. Did I did I hear that correctly?" So we like to call those like validation questions, making sure that I heard it correctly. Right?
1:43:34 So that's a good way to demonstrate listen. And then what might we say to demonstrate empathy or acknowledge? I
1:43:42 can see why the engineering report would raise urgency, especially with the safety implications you outlined. So,
1:43:49 not only did I listen and say, "Okay, I heard what you said." No, I said what you said.
1:43:54 Hey, I can see the engineer report is causing urgency and now that's a well,
1:44:01 they're raising urgent the urgency because it's a safety implication. I know I was heard if a person's going to repeat it back to me in that level of
1:44:09 detail. Again, that's how we show respect. When I'm able to say, I hear
1:44:16 you. I hear exactly what you stated to me. Have we considered this also right now? It doesn't feel like I'm challenging you.
1:44:25 I'm adding to your perspective. I'm taking the meat of what you said and how do I elevate it, make it better, make it broader
1:44:33 or or make it more global or make it to where it satisfies more of the population, right?
1:44:40 We we looking for cooperation and maybe you you hadn't seen this one side where I said earlier, you know, I'm always I want to be challenged and everything
1:44:47 because it's going to open my mindset to other things that I hadn't thought about and that's all I be trying to do when I when I do some of these things and and
1:44:56 myself a lot of time I I actually to look at the person did I hear you say so and so and so and so.
1:45:01 Yep. Those are great validation questions and and so that's a great that's another great way of demonstrating respect.
1:45:09 And again like I don't want to give the impression that I didn't hear some of those things on the call on the calls on
1:45:15 the videos because I did like I saw good demonstration of honest leadership of respectful behavior. So those things are
1:45:23 present. I just threw it into the room for full transparency that the other ones were as well. Right.
1:45:29 All right. So, we just kind of did a little bit of our practice. Um, and then I have one final vote and the last vote
1:45:37 really was which behavior will you personally focus on to move this meeting forward or our future meetings with more
1:45:46 civility, meaning higher level of respect and honesty?
1:45:51 Are you going to focus on maybe the L of the lead, the listening part, the empathy, how you empathize and acknowledge what's brought forward, how you add your perspective,
1:46:03 um or how you direct it forward. Maybe you add perspective but don't push the ball forward. And so I would love to
1:46:11 know which lead principle would you like to focus more on?
1:46:26 I think everybody's had enough time. So,
1:46:28 I'm going to come out and do our whole little thing of maga. And we got to figure that out as it's refreshing.
1:46:41 Has to be a better way to get to it. Okay.
1:46:54 What's the other ones?
1:46:56 Or I can go.
1:47:00 All right. So 80% said in how we direct the conversation forward. So progress got towards a solution next step so we
1:47:07 don't spiral into and then have someone say they're going to empathize and acknowledge,
1:47:14 right? And so I want to so on this last page here, which
1:47:21 this is really about commitment. And I I want to challenge you guys to again identify that immediate commitment. You kind of just voted and said that's that
1:47:30 set thing that I'm going to work on. Use one honest leadership phrase that you have copy of what honest leadership
1:47:38 sounds like. Again, I'll say it to the meeting's over. This is not about eliminating disagreement. We understand
1:47:47 that it has a a a normal natural um presence in this environment. We
1:47:54 expect the disagreement portion. This is about how do we elevate respect?
1:48:00 How do we degree profession disagree professionally so that we're still productive and that our disagreement doesn't hold us up from making strong decisions for our community?
1:48:10 Um, and I would love if you guys, even if you don't read it fully, but skim it
1:48:19 and really look at this book because I think there's a couple good frameworks here that you really, really would enjoy
1:48:27 that would be really helpful. Um, and I think it's important that we know and understand the enemies of radical
1:48:35 respect, those things that get in the way of us being able to demonstrate respect at a high level. And this book does a really good job of articulating
1:48:44 what those things are and how I'm telling you, I'm guilty of doing them as well. Well, it's just things that you don't even think about that play into
1:48:53 conversation and before you know it, oh man, I didn't realize that that fell under the category of bullying. I just thought that I was moving things
1:49:01 forward. And then what it does is it empowers other people to respond to it.
1:49:06 And that's what I like. So you're not sitting there trying to figure out, I just heard that statement, now what do I do? It tells you how to respond to when
1:49:15 you see those type of behaviors. And so questions, comments, concerns that you have for me, and I appreciate the
1:49:23 additional time um to really at least cover the information. It would have been a lot more questions and discussions, but you have them in your
1:49:31 workbook to be able to go through, but thank you guys so much for the opportunity. When can you come back?
1:49:38 I'm available. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.
1:49:46 Do I bow the knees? No. No. Okay. I'll keep you. We're going to get up.
1:49:54 Any closing remarks? No. Everyone,
1:49:56 I thank I thank you. I I appreciate you taking the time to come out and I think it's been a great great session and everything. So,
1:50:05 give us something to work on in the future and everything as well. So,
1:50:09 thank you, Mayor. I appreciate that. You guys have been wonderful. Uh
1:50:27 hey.
1:50:41 Heat.
1:51:07 Heat.
1:51:53 Hey, I got
1:52:47 Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat. N.
1:54:14 Heat. Heat.
1:54:37 Heat. Heat.
1:55:58 Heat. Heat.
1:56:36 down. Heat.
1:57:09 Heat. Hey. Hey. Hey.
1:58:10 Heat. Heat. Heat. N.
1:58:32 Heat. Heat.
1:59:12 Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.
2:00:33 Hey, hey, hey, hey.
2:00:52 Heat. Heat.
2:01:50 I don't know. Did this go through the house speakers? Yes.
2:01:55 cuz I can't I I know I got my hearing aids in, but I still can't hear hear nothing out here.
2:02:03 When we speak in here, do they through which speakers?
2:02:06 Ask me when we speak. Do they you hear my own house?
2:02:10 I don't know. I I don't hear it.
2:02:12 No, I don't hear it through here. I know it's you can hear it on YouTube.
2:02:15 Okay. I just I'll check with Wayne. I can Okay. But anyway, everyone go ahead and take the seats, please. We'll go ahead and get
2:02:24 start started back and uh turn it back over to Mr. Van Wagner. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
2:02:32 Well, at this time, we've decided to have a discussion. You all asked me to bring back EMS, so uh we brought back our fire department, so I'm going to
2:02:40 leave it to Chief Ael to come on up and share with his team.
2:02:52 Anywhere in there. Afternoon, mayor, council. Um,
2:03:02 wanted to have appreciate the opportunity to come in and talk about ALS transport services. Uh, we started working with Lake County probably, I
2:03:10 believe we're at about the 15-month mark on when we started having conversations with what do we need to do to improve services. So, we approached the county
2:03:18 back in October. Uh we thought at that point in time that we had an agreement worked out with Lake County. Uh the county did a 180 on us and adopted to
2:03:27 just, you know, put their their their resources into play. Uh which they have increased. We we've seen about four new ambulances come up in our area. Did you say four?
2:03:36 Four. So our model said that we needed six. They've got four up and operating and we have seen a reduction in the response times. We have not hit the
2:03:44 10-minute goal at the 90th percentile that we're looking for. uh but you know we it is a it is an improvement over the 17 minutes we were seeing you know at the onset of the conversations.
2:03:55 Um one thing that we are seeing in that is that when we have fluctuations in call volume and sometimes it can be as little as two calls a day difference in
2:04:03 eent calls and you know we just had one this past couple weeks we had one where one week we had 72 emergency responses
2:04:11 and we were down at about 10 minutes and 30 seconds for the 90th percentile response time. And the following week we had 85 responses and we were up around
2:04:19 14 minutes. So the first weeks first week was about 10 10 minutes and 40 seconds. How many calls? And that was uh 72 calls.
2:04:29 So 85 85 12 more calls two roughly two a day and the volume I mean we were up three minutes and it was almost three minutes
2:04:38 take longer. So we were up around 14 minutes on the on the arrival time of the ambulance. So those are all emergent. Correct.
2:04:45 So, it's an indication of, you know, the system is still fragile.
2:04:49 While it's improved, um, it's not to the point we're looking for. And I think they have validated that we need, in fact, six ambulances to have a resilient system that can handle the peak demands.
2:04:59 And I'll also point out that, you know,
2:05:01 between Easter and Thanksgiving, that's usually our slower time of the year. Um,
2:05:05 after Thanksgiving, we start seeing more folks coming down to the area for vacationing and other things, and we'll see an increase in population and a corresponding increase in call volume.
2:05:13 So those are other things that also have an influence over what we're seeing right now. Um I guess the uh the bottom line of what we looked at when we were
2:05:22 looking at everything and we did engage with an outside consulting company not to build some you know big case that we can go and try to you know push over on
2:05:30 the county but we wanted to have somebody that's outside of us to take a look at our data make sure that we're analyzing it correctly. uh we also
2:05:39 wanted to make sure that we were adhering to industry best practices and standards that are that are present throughout the company. So uh we have
2:05:47 received that validation and that just lets us know that the plan that we're putting together makes sense and it's meeting all those all those check mark
2:05:55 check marks. So our recommendation is that we that we do move forward with going for transport services. uh reason
2:06:03 is is that you know we we are a highly populated center of the of the county and when resources get moved to serve
2:06:10 the county system it has a much higher risk for our community than you know than if we had units that were truly dedicated to the Clermont area and
2:06:18 that's something that we could provide if we started getting into the transport services.
2:06:23 We, you know, we've done all of our homework. We we have got costs uh nailed down pretty tightly. So, we've got a good fix on what we think things are going to cost in terms of personnel,
2:06:32 equipment. Uh we've even taken into consideration that the county will probably want us to start paying for dispatch services if we start if we, you know, ended up getting our own MSTU. So,
2:06:41 those things are factored into our our budget figures that we're looking at.
2:06:45 But, I just wanted to have the opportunity to answer any questions. I know there's a there's a lot of unknowns here, so we want to explore those. I've got some of my other team members that
2:06:53 can step in if we really want to get down into the weeds on some things, but just wanted to have conversation with you. We as we do have an item on next week's agenda for council to consider us
2:07:02 going forward with the COPCN request with Lake County for ALS transport services. What does COCPS mean?
2:07:09 It is a certificate of public convenience and need public convenience. Yeah. So, and that's where by statute,
2:07:15 the county is the authority that issues a license for someone to be able to provide emergency medical care in the in the community. Right now, we have a
2:07:24 license to provide ALS non-transport services. And what we would be requesting is a is a certificate to allow us to do ALS transport.
2:07:33 And are the numbers you gave us Clermont proper or Clermont including unincorporated? Clermont. That does not include unincorporated.
2:07:40 Those are strictly Clermont responses within our jurisdiction.
2:07:43 And are we still answering ALS calls to unincorporated Clermont? We do. Uh if they're emergent calls. And what does emerent mean?
2:07:51 What if like say someone's having a stroke or a heart attack, we'll go. But if it's if it's lower acuity, we we do not respond to the county's jurisdiction.
2:07:59 That's within the ISBA. What would help me to be able to make a final determination would be, and I know you have it, but if I could get a single
2:08:06 report that shows at least the last 16 months, I know we've been tracking it for 16 months of in city
2:08:16 uninccorporated just the ALS calls emergent versus non-emergent. What kind of call volume are we dealing with with the summary
2:08:25 that you just identified of it seems to be this is the threshold? Because what I anticipate in this process is that we're
2:08:33 going to have to provide some sort of service to unincorporated Clermont. I just can't imagine that not happening.
2:08:41 And so I want to anticipate what that might look like. And then a cover sheet that explains what the MSTU is that we're currently paying to. we as
2:08:50 citizens are currently paying to Lake County. Another sheet that addresses what is the dispatch.
2:08:57 Something that allows me who has a second grade level at this to be able to speak at least at a collegiate level
2:09:04 with the numbers to back it up because I believe you and I believe it's there. I just would like to see it in one pretty
2:09:12 package and I'd like to have that expert report included in it so that that supports it as well. And we do have that reports breaks a lot of that stuff down.
2:09:19 And we have looked at the last five years of data and we also included this year I believe we went up through the data is as recent as April 12th. Okay.
2:09:29 So we were taking into account you know what did the system look like after the county did approve this.
2:09:34 I guess the fourth piece would be the financial piece of that how this works because we have the issue of the
2:09:41 citizens of Clermont are paying Lake County for emergency response. walk me through how that works. Are we thinking that that MSTU money now comes to
2:09:50 Clermont? Like what are we talking about double payment here or are we talking about getting the way the current MSDU is set up? Uh the county the city does have the option to terminate that agreement.
2:10:00 Uh but we are required to give the county one year's not notice on that. Okay.
2:10:04 So I we'd have to look at the timings as to when we would be able to get our own MSTU in place and start collecting. Um how that gets split up is a little bit
2:10:13 of a mystery to us. So, we've asked that question and then we worked with finance to try to work through that. There's a lot of inter fund transfers and other
2:10:21 things going on with the county that we really had a hard time nailing it down.
2:10:24 Uh, but we did we did get with EMS and I believe in 2024 the uh MST revenues that
2:10:30 went to the Lake County Fire and Rescue was about 2.2 to 2.3 out of the entire fund.
2:10:39 Right. And the way I understand it, we the fire truck gets there between 6 and 8 minutes on a call. Correct.
2:10:45 So then if we did have an ambulance in house, that would be 6 to 8 minutes.
2:10:49 Then you'd be saving the the cost of running let's say an engine or a truck. Right.
2:10:54 Secondly is I mean I was my understanding was that 20% of the funding comes from the MSDU and the other 80% comes in direct billing. Is that correct?
2:11:04 Um depends on the number of transport units that you have. probably be would be the opposite with us if we only had two units on the road,
2:11:11 right? But the evolution would be to have six units total,
2:11:14 but we need six additional what was in place at the time we ran our study.
2:11:18 So then funding wise, we'd actually be getting 80% of our funding through billing when it's when it's completed. You know, initially like you know,
2:11:26 you're going to be it'll be costing, but at the end then we'll be on a positive note.
2:11:30 Yeah. our our estimates uh based on county collections and our collection rate here in our area little on the conservative side but we were we were
2:11:38 figuring a number of a half million per ambulance per per year.
2:11:41 So even if we were going into unincorporated we'd be billing them. Correct.
2:11:44 So even if we didn't get MSCU for that we'd still be getting 80% of the billing be covering most of the cost.
2:11:52 It's definitely a revenue offset. Right. Right. Are we just free flowing here? Okay. Um,
2:12:02 that's a lot of numbers. Um,
2:12:08 to Councilwoman Strange's point, um, I certainly hope that we're not going to wait until tomorrow or when we get our
2:12:17 packet or or later to to get all this data. uh if these are numbers that we're
2:12:25 we need to know and consider, I I think we need to have that before we make this decision. And so I'm asking the city
2:12:31 manager um for that data uh if it's not already included to be included um
2:12:40 because I think that there there's a lot of conversation going on here about uh 80% 20% and I'm hearing you say well
2:12:49 yeah when we get there but what is what do we mean when we get there is that what year is that? And I think there's
2:12:56 different years being put out there that I want to see what the study actually says relative to what we could get with that
2:13:05 that I think I just heard you say 500,000 per ambulance per year.
2:13:09 Um is that from day one or is that year one year pretty much you know as soon as we start billing and collecting that that's that's the revenue we generate.
2:13:18 Um and that would be helpful. I think also too we're going to need to know I heard you mention something about pay for our own dispatch. Uh I think it's
2:13:26 important to understand what that entails as well in terms of staffing costs, startup time.
2:13:33 No, when I said that, I was looking at uh what we did is we looked at what the agreement is that our police department has with the sheriff's office and they're paying $12 per resident per
2:13:42 year, which comes out to 600,000. So what my anticipation would be if we ended the MSTU and implemented our own
2:13:49 is that the Lake County center that handles police and fire or not police and fire and EMS, they would want a similar agreement with us to be able to
2:13:56 provide those dispatching services since they would not be receiving the MS2 dollars directly.
2:14:01 So when you say do our own dispatch, not our own center per se, correct?
2:14:06 But funding our own anticipating have a contract with Lake County to provide those services. Okay.
2:14:14 um with
2:14:20 with regard to um the application where so if if that gets approved where
2:14:29 does where does that go at that point we can then apply to the state for an ALS license and at which time we also have to get DA
2:14:37 DEA licensing and a bunch of other things that have to take place who decides ides ultimately if we get
2:14:45 into the EMS ALS transport service if the county grounds the COPCN council.
2:14:51 So if the count but the county has to give us the ability to make that decision. Right.
2:14:56 Right. They have to issue the certificate before we can proceed with anything else.
2:15:00 Right. And I I think that's where I wanted to make sure I fully understood where we're at because it it it's not as though if we vote next week,
2:15:10 yes, that it actually happens.
2:15:13 The authorization actually would not occur until the county says you can have the authorization to do that,
2:15:22 which we still have to come back to council for all the approvals to, you know, be able to move forward, you know, do the funding and everything else.
2:15:29 So, is is the resolution next week asking for permission to ask the county to give us that's all that's all we're asking for.
2:15:37 Okay. So, it's asking for permission to ask for permission. Correct. Right.
2:15:42 So, and I know it's more complicated than that, but I just want I think to understand really where we are because it's very easy for folks to understand and hear this and think the vote is
2:15:49 actually X or Y when it's really Z. I think it's important to understand. No, I I think it's a fair assumption.
2:15:55 You know, the county has not been in favor of us doing this. So, there's a very strong likelihood that even though I believe we have a strong case that we we will get denied.
2:16:06 So, what do we do? Well, we do we get denied.
2:16:09 Well, we'll have to get with our legal and take a look at, you know, their process and our case and make a determination as to whether we think we we have an appeal.
2:16:18 An appeal to I'm sorry. An appeal to who?
2:16:22 I was about to ask that. My understanding from talking with Christian, it would be very similar to having somebody come in to do a development project and then being
2:16:28 denied and then they they basically, you know, retain council and sue the city to say, "You didn't give me a fair shake."
2:16:36 So, we would, you're suggesting we would sue the county.
2:16:38 That's my understanding how that would take place. Christian's on deck. Yes, he is. Here he is. Hey.
2:16:46 Now, do we have like historical data from other cities that have done similar projects like we've done? My understanding was Venice had done a
2:16:54 similar thing where their county didn't want to let it go and then they had to in turn sue or whatever to accomplish that. And their initial thing was it was
2:17:03 costing let's say a million or so. But after a four-year period, they were in a positive cash flow with that with all the additional personnel and additional
2:17:12 equipment and and staffing that was required. Yeah, we've had some very early conversations with uh you know with with Venice, but we have not had a
2:17:20 time to go down there and spend a lot of basically do a field trip to talk with them in depth about their their journey.
2:17:27 Christian adequately or accurately state the process that we would sue the county if the county says no.
2:17:34 I have no idea if the city would do that. Um I this is a hearing. So the copcn
2:17:41 procedure is if the county is going to consider the city's application or petition fairly. It's got its own
2:17:50 factors and guidelines and things that it has to base our application on. So just like anything else, if if I go into
2:17:57 court and I think I've proved four elements of something and the court denies me or the jury finds against me even though I've proved it, I might
2:18:05 appeal. I might I might but I not necessarily. Um, so it's an option.
2:18:12 Obviously, that has pros and cons, and I'm not trying to indicate in any way,
2:18:17 shape, or form that I would recommend that right now or anything like that.
2:18:20 Nonetheless, if for some reason the city wasn't treated fairly under its own code, and Lake County has its own code
2:18:27 section for what it needs to do when dealing with a COPCN, then an appeal would be an option.
2:18:34 That's all. Have you analyzed this from a legal perspective as to the strength of the case that Clermont might have according to the county's existing code?
2:18:44 Yes.
2:18:46 Can we get a written opinion on that to come with the packet from the fire department?
2:18:54 Let me hedge publicly on that. And and the reason why is because um I think I
2:19:02 don't want to re if if everyone moves forward with this and the city does apply then I don't want to necessarily
2:19:10 reveal the entire strategy beforehand. I think it might be important that I keep some cards myself but I I can give a general um review.
2:19:21 I I'm not trying to, you know, play games. It's just I've thought this through a couple steps and that makes sense. I don't want to reveal throw your hand. Yeah.
2:19:29 What I and I appreciate that. What I'm looking for is a sense of confidence that one, this is in the best interest of the citizens of Clermont from an emergency and safety perspective. Two,
2:19:41 this is in the best interest of the citizens of Clermont from a financial perspective. And three, this isn't just an exercise. we actually have a high
2:19:48 likelihood of being granted it either because the county grants it under their current code or because if the county chose not to for any reason that we have
2:19:57 a legitimate legal case to be making this request that we can support in a court of law even if that doesn't mean putting all your cards on the table. I
2:20:05 want to have comfort that I'm not just blowing smoke here.
2:20:08 The first two components I think are best determined by your staff. Okay. Um,
2:20:13 the third component of what you said, I can I can prepare and discuss with you
2:20:20 and any other member of the council who wants that discussion. Yeah,
2:20:25 I would like all those three before we vote. And I'll be candid with you, I'm not so sure I can get there by Tuesday of next week.
2:20:34 Not that I don't want to get there with you. It's just this is going to be a lot of information to digest and I unless you already have this report ready,
2:20:46 I'd still say even if I got it today,
2:20:48 I'm probably going to say, can we do it the first meeting in May? And so I think what I would say to you is I need two weeks from whenever I get that report
2:20:56 myself. I don't know how everyone else I was already kind of thinking along those lines that it would be good to push it out at least one more meeting just so we time to digest everything.
2:21:04 You know, for us there was a lot of unknowns and what we were looking for today is really, you know, what what what's the direction you're looking for us to go in and what can we provide you
2:21:12 to be able to make a informed Yeah. and comfortable decision.
2:21:17 So, I've given him a list of direct billing, MSTU, where do we get revenue?
2:21:22 What would the costs be? These are all in Scott's I think I need Scott to look it over as well. Chief, the professionals report you already have.
2:21:30 You said you did a five-year call. I'm also looking five compared to one year emergent versus non-emergent in city
2:21:38 versus in county getting all these numbers summary report what we're asking for what is the process one page and
2:21:46 then an assessment a dispatch explanation so that we have a complete report is there anything else that anyone hears that I've left off of this
2:21:54 that we need to add to the list of what we're looking for in this report that we can think of one more time
2:22:01 yep so revenues direct billing and MSTU expenses, what those would look like,
2:22:06 looking over a timeline. Scott listens to this cash flow analysis. Um the professional report we already have
2:22:13 looking at calls the last five year, the last one year, emergent compared to non-emergent, city versus unincorporated. So all of those and then
2:22:23 an explanation of dispatch and what this process might look like. Professional report. When did that come?
2:22:29 When did you get that? Um, we've had different revisions. I believe the most recent one was the 12th of this month. Oh, okay. So, so we would need that. Yeah.
2:22:37 Yeah. I thought I heard you say we got and I I want to make sure. I I don't think I don't know that I have that. So,
2:22:42 sorry. He said he had Yeah. Okay. So, he's okay.
2:22:44 Yeah. We've been want to make sure as we provide updated information to the consultants that they're they're rerunning the numbers to bring them up to date.
2:22:51 I think that's um I I don't know who they Okay, we want a case study from Venice.
2:22:59 Let's take a look at it. Right. I think that's a good idea. But it'll be, you know, a similar thing.
2:23:06 Yeah. Size of the city, what caused them to do it, if they're chief, I don't know, something some some sort of knowledge. Is there anyone else in the
2:23:13 city in the state that's similarly sized as us who's done this that we could look to for I think Venice is is probably the the
2:23:21 the best one to compare to. um just for the simple reason that uh you know they're it's almost it's almost an identical situation what we're dealing with. They
2:23:30 they were not getting the service level that they wanted from the county and their battle was a much longer process that I hope we don't have to go through
2:23:37 what they went through. Um, but you know, and it's I've had conversations with their mayor down there, and you
2:23:44 know, he's he's opted to hook us up with their city manager, the fire chief, and everybody down there, but we've just been, you know, dismissing each other on emails.
2:23:53 So, that would be helpful, I think. Yeah.
2:23:55 And I'll add, we had talked a couple meetings ago about the finances for fire stations 5, six, McKinnon, uh, and
2:24:03 Lincoln Park. You know, a financial five-year plan. If we need to extend this to incorporate all of this
2:24:11 together, I'm perfectly happy. I want to get this one right more than I want to expedite it is where I'm coming from. So those could I don't want you to do all
2:24:20 this work and then me you know it's May and I'm going well what's going to happen with fire station 6 and and have you feel blindsided. So I think these
2:24:28 could potentially play in together especially on the cash flow analysis.
2:24:32 Absolutely. That that's one of the things we're looking at. I mean, I have the projects for station six as well as transport. Yeah.
2:24:38 Built out in our budgets. Um, but if we do go through whatever mechanism, you know, partnership with the county, uh,
2:24:44 we get our own independent system or whatever, uh, it definitely reduces the lift on getting station six open because I would recommend that we open it with an ambulance.
2:24:54 And that is about $4 million cheaper than doing it with with an engine.
2:25:00 That's why I like it. Can Can we I don't know if the rest of the council has seen this before, but I know we've heard and talked about some sort of memo or
2:25:09 agreement that exists that someone I think signed at some point about housing ambulances in Oh, you're right.
2:25:18 fire stations. And I don't know that I've ever seen that to see what it actually says and when it was actually agreed upon and signed.
2:25:27 We have those. They were from memory that was 2010 when the agreements went into effect.
2:25:33 Uh there was an email or a mail letter from the fire chief I believe in 2018
2:25:39 um that I believe effectively removed the the agreement for station three. The one that we still have in place is for fire station 2 which
2:25:48 currently I don't have room for the crews that I have station much less than an an ambulance.
2:25:54 So I think to his point you provide that that's what we can. Yes. I I think that would be helpful. Um, and I think the other piece
2:26:01 that I I've gotten a couple of questions on about that is like how how do we say we have room for city of Clermont
2:26:09 ambulances but not county ambulances in these same fire stations.
2:26:16 And and I think that's I don't I don't quite understand that yet. uh in in terms of if we have space for a red
2:26:24 ambulance but not a red and gray ambulance we don't we have to build it well but that's what I think we need to
2:26:31 understand is that it adding six ambulances well we don't I think there's an assumption that that just means they
2:26:39 get slotted into existing stations and I don't know that that's necessarily the case so I think it'd be helpful to understand if we were to do six
2:26:47 ambulances or whatever it was that in year one, year two, year three, where would they be housed in those years?
2:26:55 Because we're not going to be able to build all new fire stations. Yeah.
2:26:58 Um and so we'll be able to maybe wrap those into any future stations, but how do we how do we incorporate that into
2:27:06 potentially with the four that currently exist in the city?
2:27:14 How do we house those if we can't house?
2:27:16 One of the things is that we when we have we have way more ambulance calls than fire calls. So, we're not going to need that that equipment. So, we're
2:27:24 going to be substituting an engine for an ambulance.
2:27:28 But, I want to hear that from our staff is I don't think we've heard that. At least I don't have that information available to us. Is that what h what is
2:27:36 what? Okay. So if we did this and we got this certificate at current station one,
2:27:44 how would we provide EMS ALS transport out of current station one today? I I can't do it right. And that's I think that's what's helpful to
2:27:51 a lot of this is in the timing of what's going to take place because if we got a green light today to do this, it probably would take me until quarter one
2:27:59 of 2027 to get an ambulance up and operating.
2:28:02 So by that time frame, we've got station five opened. the crews that I've got at station one for overflow would be moved down to station five. I'd have room
2:28:10 there to put an ambulance in that location and by the time we were we had crews trained and ready for the second ambulance, we'd have the new station two opened.
2:28:18 So I think it's almost like a what I'm hearing is like a project management timeline of staffing apparatus
2:28:25 and locations. Exactly. that maybe it's three and they overlap but we kind of go through the different years and project out of how that would look in that way
2:28:34 to to understand the fuller picture of all today we could not do it right and that's what I think is helpful for us but also the general public to understand
2:28:42 it's a great point I mean I was I'll never forget the day that we got the the what do you call the
2:28:51 what' you build what you what is it called the model the model thank you when the model showed up it's Yes, I see it now.
2:28:59 So, we hear the words, but you know, I think to see it to be able to see how that moves. I like charts.
2:29:06 Heck, you could set this room up as a city, you know, map and show the vehicles moving. It's fine with me.
2:29:11 So, I agree. So, I've added that to the list. I'll give this list, too. And there, I'm sorry, one other thing.
2:29:16 In that in that apparatus and conversation, how does the current ambulance we own wrap into all of that?
2:29:22 That would be that that would be a good good unit as a reserve. Well, and I think yeah, to have that in that that info would be helpful to understand where it goes.
2:29:30 We could also use it at like public events like you know, we had the Jazz Fest last weekend. That would be a good piece of equipment to put down there to keep at the event. Correct.
2:29:37 Okay. Christian, are we missing anything? Hey,
2:29:47 well, I think I think uh Miss Strange put in her request just about everything. head down here for you to the budget MSTU uninccorporated or
2:29:55 concerned about uninccorporated CL um you say something about we can terminate the MSTU is it that simple to just
2:30:02 terminate MSTU we can just say we don't want the MSTU no more to the county we can terminate
2:30:09 I mean there's there's notice uh there's a time period um we have to do it a certain amount of time but as long as we
2:30:16 comply with that yes it's my understanding we can terminate and then among The concern as I've said about dispatch as well because uh right
2:30:25 now who who's doing our dispatching Lake County Lake County so we terminate the MSTU and go now on service we still going to have
2:30:33 to go through Lake County for dispatching and we're accounting for that. We do have a line item in there for the agreement with Lake County for dispatching services.
2:30:41 Another question now we saying we need six ambulance. I heard you say we can put one in station five and one in station six. Where are the other four going to be housed?
2:30:49 We're we're not looking to replace Lake County. We want to enhance what they're doing. You know, if they make a commitment to leaving what they've stood
2:30:56 up so far, I mean, adding two will basically take us to the six that we need. So, I mean, that's something we could take a look at as far as and it's
2:31:04 kind of the California model of how it's done. The municipalities provide a certain level of ambulance service and it's backfilled with the counties to be able to provide a higher level of
2:31:12 service. U the the the thing that's good for us is it gives us control. It gives us more transparency over what we're
2:31:19 providing to our public and we're able to provide a better service here because we have a higher risk to our citizens here with the sheer volume of calls that
2:31:26 we have compared to most other areas in Lake County.
2:31:31 And it's my understanding that Lake County right now what they've done we we got our calls down as you said down to 10 minutes and then on weekend sometimes
2:31:38 it's up to 14 is what they told me last week. It depends on the time of day. you know,
2:31:43 we've we've actually got charts on, you know, day of the week, time of day, and everything else as to when the volumes are up.
2:31:48 Um, but it's it really has to do with the volume and even the the non-emergency calls have an impact on that. Uh, if there's activity elsewhere in the county and they start pulling
2:31:56 those units to those calls, that reduces the number that are available for our citizens. And anytime you have a draw down on resources, you have an increased
2:32:03 risk and that translates into longer response times. And I and I just I'm trying to figure out how we going to not charge the residents who come out
2:32:12 double. Well, they be charging them twice if we still going to have to pay Lake County because you're not going to get rid of this MSTU and we can still going to have to have the county for
2:32:21 ambulance and we supplementing. So, how we going to pay for our two without having to charge them additional? you if you're talking about how we would handle Lake County if we had a kind of a hybrid
2:32:29 system where they they have ambulances and and we do as well and we're charging an MSTU, it might be as simple as doing the same agreement that they offered us
2:32:37 six months ago, you know, where where they get a they get a slice of the MSTU for the call and then they get the bill for the service that they provide to the uh to the individual.
2:32:48 They they put it in writing and they just didn't follow through on what they put in writing. So we didn't produce it. They produced.
2:32:57 Well, yeah. Well, cuz I mean I don't see them still providing us four ambulance down here without collecting that MSTU.
2:33:03 Yeah. And of course we going to how we pay for our two. Okay. In addition to the MSTU, we have to somewhat charge
2:33:10 higher rates, I guess, ourselves. Um they were going to give a portion of that back, Mr. Mayor. Okay.
2:33:16 That that's what they suggested to us from from their end. So, if they go back to their first agreement, which we all work together, then there's they're
2:33:25 getting the MSTU and they're paying us for service calls.
2:33:28 But how much how anybody got to figure on how much we paying in the MSTU right now?
2:33:33 I believe the number is up to 2.9 million. 2.9 million. Okay.
2:33:40 And that that's for unlimited ambulance for for the county. And of course, I understand the county is also getting ready to put two more ambulance down here. looking to put two more ambulance to give them six.
2:33:51 And see, we still trying to trying to reinvent this wheel here, you know. And I guess I'm I'm concerned because I was here when we had them ourselves.
2:34:00 We did our own service. We we've never had ambulance service.
2:34:03 We we had ambulance service here long before you were here, chief. Uh we used to house one in uh station number one.
2:34:08 We had one in station number two and one in station number three. We used to have three ambulance before.
2:34:13 Those were those were under Lake Sumpter or Lake County. So we could have them in the stations, but they they were not clear.
2:34:18 It was all all doing coming through here and we took them out because we didn't have room for them and everything and went to county alone. And I I'll say
2:34:27 this again, I disagreed with it at the time, okay? Along with the police. We took our police dispatch and all that.
2:34:33 We took it all out at one time and put it up in the county. I did not like it.
2:34:38 And the service in the beginning was was was horrible to be honest with you. It was horrible. But it took us some growing pain. took us a year or two to
2:34:46 get it down. Uh even the police when you got a call for accident on on say Hancock, our police and dispatch was all
2:34:55 confused because they didn't know whether to send county or to send city because you got city and county. That's the case now.
2:35:01 Well, well, we worked through these issues. We worked through all of them.
2:35:04 That's what I mean. During them time, we went we had to work through a lot of that kind of stuff in the dispatch. uh we lost jobs and everything else down
2:35:11 here uh from that and I'm just seeing if we went through that then and all and we coming back now we talking about six
2:35:19 amusets when we had three down here before when the city was a little bit smaller and we was having trouble six going to really be enough for us
2:35:27 well based on the 2025 data that we ran yes but that's something we've got to we got to monitor that over time as we continue to grow and there's more
2:35:34 populations I mean eventually yeah you're going to have to add and that's one of the reasons we're here is that,
2:35:40 you know, we want to be proactive in how we take care of our community. And we look at what the county has done over the last decade. The county has grown by
2:35:47 42%. We've grown by 58% here in Clermont. And it wasn't until January that the county finally added a new
2:35:54 ambulance to the system. So for 10 years, we went without adding while all this growth is happening. And it really took us going to the county to say, you
2:36:02 know, we need to do something and we're ready to step in.
2:36:05 Well, we weren't the only one complaining about that. All the all the cities was complaining, not only this county, but all the counties was complaining because in the last couple
2:36:13 years and that's why I feel like the data we're going to get is not going to be true data because um CO came along
2:36:22 and it created a lot of the problem we had with the ambulance service because they they lost a lot of personnel. We couldn't get people I know the county was baring people from other counties to
2:36:31 try to man our ambulance and all this stuff. So we worked through all that.
2:36:34 Now we're coming back online. See what what happened that drove up response times as well.
2:36:39 Yeah, initially during COVID we saw a decrease in call volume. People just didn't want to go to the hospital. They didn't want to they were too afraid to go to the hospital.
2:36:46 Well, what happened there is the county reduced down to 16 ambulances because they were having less demand. And then when the Delta wave hit and the call
2:36:54 volume spiked, they didn't have near enough ambulances to handle the calls and we were sometimes waiting an hour or longer for an ambulance to arrive. And that's when they called in the the teams
2:37:02 from not only us but not only Lake County and we was having to bury people from Sumpter County and all these other counties the man amless and that was
2:37:11 going on all all throughout the state you know semino county everybody was had the same problem because of co they lost a lot of personnel and everything too.
2:37:18 Well, you know, an interesting during that time, I talked with the uh with the fire chief over at Lake County and I offered to him after talking with the
2:37:26 city manager's office that if they would provide us a box, we would put it on the road and they declined the offer.
2:37:32 M Mr. Mayor, are you opposed to us continuing to investigate getting our own?
2:37:38 No. Well, one of what one well the question I wrote here is the fact that I don't want to see us if we going to do
2:37:46 it, we need to go out on our own. We don't need to be trying to do Lake County and Clema. I see. Okay. All right. Because we in that way. I'm
2:37:54 sorry, but I don't think you're gonna get rid of the MSTU if you still going to have to have the county provide an ambulance for they not going to get rid of it.
2:38:01 So, you're thinking that we don't want to do a joint agreement. We would rather if we're going to do it, you do it on your own. in there. Of course, my other question is, do we want
2:38:09 to worry about trying to put these ambulance in in in the fire station or do we just build a hub for the ambulance?
2:38:17 Because you're not going to have you're not going to have room for six ambulance. If you're going to do it, you you may well break away from the county all together.
2:38:23 So, now how you going to fund it, I don't know. How do we feel about adding to this? Um,
2:38:29 chief, uh, option one, a joint agreement with the county. what that would look like and option two if we just do it
2:38:36 internally so that we can consider two pathways. I realize I'm adding to your plate, but I think that the mayor makes a valid point and if we can see, okay,
2:38:46 the county gave us a hybrid option,
2:38:49 but I can get behind, hey, Clermont just needs to do this. I think seeing it both ways might be helpful for not only us, but also the county. Yeah,
2:38:59 it might be helpful for for you and your team. Is that Yeah, the county agreement for us to operate under the license to be honest.
2:39:07 I mean, that that would have been a very light lift for us as far as getting into the ambulance service. There's a lot of things that we wouldn't have to take on.
2:39:13 Uh we were actually in favor of doing that. It's just the the problem was is that the offer that they made required us to fully integrate into their system
2:39:22 to where, you know, a Clermont ambulance could be stuck up in North County the entire shift. So I'm hearing you say when we start talking about the COCPN, what we're talking about is on
2:39:31 one hand operating under the county's license, which is what might be the hybrid, and on the other hand operating our own license, correct? Which is a
2:39:38 heavier lift. So, I I think the mayor makes valid points and if you're willing and if everyone else is on board, I mean, this would be adding quite a bit
2:39:46 to the to the reporting stage. But I think at least looking at it from a financial perspective, seeing both versions would be helpful,
2:39:55 right? I think one of the things you you know the question is where are you going to house ambulances? And I know like there's place you don't need a firehouse
2:40:03 to house the ambulance. You could have smaller facilities like you know that you could just have an ambulance and a crew because we're going to have the additional crew too. Correct.
2:40:13 So this way you could have like you know place that could house two ambulances another place as the city's growing especially along this way you know we'd
2:40:20 have addition you know so the ambulance can be don't have to be housed in a firehouse because you're going to have additional crew for the ambulance the
2:40:27 paramedics and the dispatch. And it's part of what we've looked at is if we did get into transport that some of these gaps that we've got going on in
2:40:35 the city that we could utilize the ambulances to to increase the level of service in those areas.
2:40:41 You like you know station six would be a fantastic example that we can put an ambulance up there. Um you know we've had some very early discussions with parks and wreck about you know looking
2:40:50 at doing something over by the lakefelter park area. Uh Mckennon Groves uh when station 5 gets built there'll be room in there for two apparatus plus an
2:40:58 ambulance. So, you know, as we build things going forward, we're going to create that room and allow for that type of growth.
2:41:05 So, are we good with So, we've added to the list of what's in the the new binder option one and option two.
2:41:13 Are we good with that? I am.
2:41:16 I would like to see it. I know. I'm asking. I'm sorry. We might push out. We might push out.
2:41:23 It's going to take a while to get it done.
2:41:26 We'll take a look at it. I want I'm okay with that.
2:41:29 I really want everyone to feel comfortable with what we're doing and to understand the options and and what's out there.
2:41:35 That's that's our job is to provide that information so that you can make those decisions. Does that work for you, Brian? Yeah. Well,
2:41:41 I what I don't what I don't want to happen is whenever we get to a point where we make a decision that it goes
2:41:49 that we just keep going back and forth from that decision. Agree. And so if it if it takes getting a fuller picture now
2:41:57 of an option one, option two, and all the details of those options so that we can digest it, talk about it, ask
2:42:04 questions, deliberate on it, take it to the public, come back and we take a vote and we just that's where we're moving. Yep.
2:42:12 I I I'd much rather take that time to do that and do that regardless of how any of us vote. I'd
2:42:20 rather take that time to do that up front. I agree wholehearted.
2:42:22 Um, and let's throw another thing in there like I just asked. Do we need to if we going to do all this, do we need to build a hub for ambulance?
2:42:30 I, mayor, I don't think so.
2:42:31 If if we go out on our own, I I don't believe so. I I like the the distributed model. It it helps us with our response packages. Um, our plan is to stick with dual certif certified.
2:42:41 No, but I'm saying that well, right now you're telling me we we don't have room in ambulance in our uh station to house ambulance. So if we end up breaking out
2:42:49 on our own, do we need to have a just create a hub where we house them all at one location and everything?
2:42:54 Well, going back to the project management timeline is we build this system out, if we go forward with it, we'll have the room. Okay.
2:43:02 And just just so we say it out loud, I don't know that option one is an option. Okay. The the hybrid,
2:43:09 right? Because they proposed that to us and then took it back when we went for the meeting to discuss it,
2:43:16 right? And so we can do that. I just want to make sure everybody understands that may not even be on the table. That's why I'm a little concerned
2:43:24 why either the way I see it and way I'm hearing things happening. We going to either have to break out our own or we going to have to stay with the county. Okay.
2:43:33 But that's really the two options.
2:43:34 See, and if we do because if we did the hybrid, you know, where we did this,
2:43:38 it's going to end up costing our tax bill d uh twice.
2:43:42 They were going to pay us though from the MSTU money. Yeah. to service.
2:43:47 Hey, but okay. MSTU right now. You just tell me you getting you give them we give them they collecting $2.9 million from MSTU.
2:43:55 How much we estimate it going to cost us to operate two ambulance with man and everything? 3.6 million.
2:44:00 This gentleman behind you can tell you if you want.
2:44:02 I mean those are numbers that was thrown out before 3.6 million for two ambulance for us to operate. We only giving the county 2.9 right now.
2:44:09 Well, that's not counting the revenue offset. You know,
2:44:11 this 80% is going to be coming from building in our numbers. what we were looking at.
2:44:15 I mean, the number is actually closer to four million when we're factoring in the dispatch services, but you'd have a we're estimating about three million in
2:44:22 revenue offset if we had the MSTU in place. You would have the money from the MSTU. Then you would also have the revenues collected from the ambulance
2:44:29 unit. So, your net out of pocket would be about a million a year.
2:44:32 About a million. Okay. See what I'm saying? You know, somewhere the taxpayer going to have to be to get that million a year to make up that difference from
2:44:40 the MSTU and what we get. Taxpayer going to have to pay it from somewhere. Well, by contrast, uh, for station six, uh,
2:44:46 total cost to get that station up and running, uh, first year salaries is going to be close to five million. And then ongoing cost for personnel,
2:44:53 equipment, maintenance, and all the other things is going to be about 2.2 million a year. So, if you started it up with an ambulance to start with, and you
2:45:01 know, it's there is a lower call volume there, it is a much lighter lift for the city to get services in that area.
2:45:09 Yeah. Um,
2:45:12 I think she gave you a list. I guess she writing it out for you, Miss Strange. Are you writing it out for him? I am.
2:45:20 Everything of all this stuff, but uh,
2:45:22 you know, most of the things she had I had written down here myself.
2:45:24 We we have about 90% of everything that's been asked for. We just we just need to put it together and assemble the packet.
2:45:30 Okay. No. And I'm going with Mr. Bane here. I don't think I'm I'm not in that big of a rush to get it back to me until we get it all together and everything so
2:45:39 we can take a look at it all and get with Bennis and whoever and everything. So,
2:45:44 and and we're we're just asking for direction on it. You know, we need to know whether we're doing it or not doing it. We're fine with a yes or a no. We recommend a yes. We we actually think
2:45:52 it's in our best interest to have that COPCN under, you know, our our roof because I don't know what's going to happen with those units in the future
2:46:01 that the county is providing. I I'm already hearing from other places that they're starting to ask why is Clermont getting ambulances and we're not.
2:46:09 So, I don't know if those are going to get redistributed to other areas for them to provide a more uniform service across the county,
2:46:15 which is which is what they they should be doing. Uh but I don't think a uniform service for Lake County makes sense for the service level that's needed in the
2:46:23 but I'm hearing also at the county at the same time people in the county telling me they get looking to put two more emlets down here,
2:46:29 not take anything away. They looking to put we get us up to six.
2:46:32 Mr. Mayor, who can we talk to about that? Cuz I don't know about that and I don't think Chief does. So, you're hearing about six? Well, nobody.
2:46:39 Well, I don't I don't know. This is the rumor I'm hearing about. And I feel like none of us knew they were putting the other four in here, right, until it happened?
2:46:47 They told us. Yeah. Well,
2:46:49 I don't know anything about six. And I met with the county manager on Monday.
2:46:53 So, I I just for communication, I'd like to call somebody and say, "This is exciting.
2:46:59 Please tell me more about it. But if you're the I'm just asking respectfully. If you could tell us who's saying that, I'll make a call.
2:47:06 Chief up there and see if they'll tell you what's going on. I know at my last uh lunchon at the Heartland lunchon, one of the chiefs came to me and said to me,
2:47:15 we got four and that's who told me we was down to 10-minute call, 14 on the weekends and stuff and all and they look still looking to do two more.
2:47:23 The Lake County EMS chief came to you. one of the chiefs and everything.
2:47:30 I'm going to add a case study that didn't work. I would like to see one that worked,
2:47:37 Venice, and also one that didn't work so we know what to avoid.
2:47:45 One page is fine. I don't need I don't know. He knows. He's the expert. He knows everything. He knows. Have to dig on that one.
2:47:53 We're trusting him with our life. He can He can find one. Yeah. So if you can find one that they thought it would work and then it didn't work, what went wrong could be us. Could be what we did in the
2:48:01 past if we had it in the past. So and let me say that in my understanding the these agreements can take a long time too.
2:48:08 They can they can take I've heard I've heard some of them take up to two to three years to get approved here. I've heard some they can get them
2:48:16 quicker, but I've heard some of them take quite a while. How long did Venice go though? Um two decades. Huh? Two decades.
2:48:21 Two decades for Venice. Yeah, it can take a while. That's ridiculous. years. That's ridiculous.
2:48:29 That's what you dec you submitting this request to the
2:48:39 county and the county has to make the decision. They can prolong it longer they want. Okay.
2:48:45 There's been a number of fights over the years between, you know, municipalities, special districts and counties.
2:48:53 I don't know what happened in Venice's case. That's our job. So, and I'm I just said that to say,
2:48:59 hey, we still need to be far as I'm concerned, we still need to be putting pressure on the county to get the get the service we want because we can be waiting a while to get this everything done.
2:49:08 Okay. We could be doing both at the same time.
2:49:10 Well, I didn't say we couldn't. I said we still need to put them on there while you're going through that because it may take some time to do it. We all good. So, we can move on.
2:49:19 I'm good. Thank you, Chief.
2:49:20 Thank you, Chief. Appreciate the opportunity.
2:49:31 All right.
2:49:35 Does somebody need a break? Bring uh planning and zoning to the table.
2:49:39 Be great. They've been here for three hours.
2:49:52 How you doing, sir? Good to see you.
2:49:56 I I haven't been able to join y'all in Holland nothing lately. Oh, man. I missed two. Yeah, that's your name.
2:50:04 I was at Mercy and then last Friday I was down in the conference down like I paid my money for the conference again for the lunch over there again.
2:50:16 Yeah,
2:50:16 sometimes
2:51:54 breakdowns. I'm going, well, what if we got together and we all shared,
2:51:58 this is not a sharing. This is like a you know if we all share what's going through our heads when we're looking at these projects so that we can come to an
2:52:07 agreement on what standards we're using not only for our benefit because I often by the time it gets to me it's already
2:52:14 gone through a whole process and I might go well was this question ever asked or did this matter and no one I didn't ask
2:52:22 it so no one knew to ask it. So I think if we talk about what it is that we're using individually and then collectively to measure these projects and whether
2:52:31 they're capital G good for the city then not only do we have an agreement as committee me uh you know commissioners
2:52:39 and council members but also then staff knows what we're going to use and the applicant knows what to use. So from the day that they turn in their application or pick up their application, they know,
2:52:50 oh, these are some standards and specifically I'm referring to reasonzoning and cups. So this is when somebody's coming and saying, I want special treatment and we're saying,
2:53:00 well, what makes you special?
2:53:02 You know, and I think it's fair for us to say that upfront. This is what we consider to be special.
2:53:09 And so if you check these boxes, you're likely to have an easier application process. If you don't check these boxes,
2:53:15 you're probably not going to have a very easy application process. But that was why I was hoping we could get together and I literally was thinking, can we
2:53:23 just go kind of go through the list and start identifying what standards we're using and being specific like not just safety, but actually saying,
2:53:33 okay, what does safe mean? Does it mean I can safely drive my car? Does it mean I can safely drive my golf cart? Does it
2:53:41 mean I as an adult can safely cross the road? Or does it mean I as an adult can sit with my friend while my eight-year-old son runs around with his
2:53:49 friends in front of me without, for example, getting hit by a car? So, what does that mean when we say safety? If we say comfortable, well, what does that
2:53:57 mean? Is that comfortable for vehicles or is it comfortable for humans? So thinking along those lines and I've talked to most I think every well
2:54:05 obviously not council members but I've talked to to many members of PNZ and the goal to help streamline this. So that's where I'm coming from. Thank you for
2:54:13 being here. Um who's the current chair on PNZ?
2:54:17 Dave, let me Oh, I'm sorry. No, go ahead.
2:54:21 Okay. Uh let me see. It's um you you've me mentioned uh what
2:54:29 standards and everything we use. We we standards is governed by our directive,
2:54:33 our ordinance, our comprehensive all our ordinance and everything govern what we supposed to be basing our decision upon.
2:54:40 Okay. Um PNZ has a pacific specific duty and then the council has a specific duty. Um, I
2:54:49 had the I asked Mr. W to go and do some training and we we've done this before in council
2:54:56 board uh PNZ before we had the joint meeting before in training the train and make sure we understand what each one what their responsibility for on PNZ.
2:55:06 Okay. Uh same thing with the city council. Uh when I sit up there I know what the rules are, what they bring to us and that's what I make my decision
2:55:14 based upon. So I don't think there is no confusion. We shouldn't have any confusion about what goals or what standards we're using to
2:55:23 make our decision. But that's one of the problems and one of the complaints I'm getting getting is the fact that uh we're not playing by the rules and we we
2:55:31 we're going outside our rims and everything. That's why I asked Mr. Mr. W to go down before to do some training
2:55:39 and everything to make sure we all understand what our roles are. Okay.
2:55:43 Everybody know what their roles are. and with the complaints I was getting and yeah that's why I came back with the magistrate and everything because I was
2:55:52 just getting too many complaints uh uh about we stepping outside our box okay uh on
2:55:59 PNZ and sometime even here on the council and all and um even after the training and they say I've done training
2:56:07 before and then we did it again and told Mr. while we do this, we we going to have to come up with something because we can't keep having the city have a
2:56:14 black eye like we were having and the conversations and the noise I keep hidden from developers and everybody else don't want to come to Clim and do
2:56:22 anything uh because of the treatment they was getting at PNZ and I hear that and that's why I'm hoping that we can we can help move it forward today.
2:56:30 Well, yeah. And I'll add to that.
2:56:33 I'm coachable. What was the last element? There's there's a a list of things. The standards, the last standard is to me it's it's vague or ambiguous.
2:56:44 What is it? It's the one that that we're getting kind of caught up in.
2:56:48 Oh, well, so when we consider Well, it happens in two different ways, but look,
2:56:54 by and large, we at PNZ and your city council have two types of quasi judicial
2:57:01 things we deal with. One is the conditional use permits and the other is the zoning. Okay, the zoning ch reszoning. Now, when we look at the factors of the conditional use permit,
2:57:12 there's four primary factors. But in assessing the third factor,
2:57:19 there's another code section that has a list of seven things that they have to consider. And so, I think that's where the rubber hits the road. And specifically what I'm talking about is
2:57:28 101-212 subsection C um 3.
2:57:39 Actually, I'm going to let's just say 101-212 subc. Okay. And that lists the four criteria. But then subsection D says
2:57:48 here's some specific standards that you use when interpreting the four requirements above. It doesn't
2:57:56 say how to. It just says density. It says compatibility. It says transportation, utilities, storm water,
2:58:02 site planning. And then in site planning, there's eight different things. Finally, there's solid waste disposal. You know, so we had a a hearing recently where um Mr. Crawford,
2:58:16 you know, Mr. Neck asked a question about I think some solid waste disposal and Mr. Crawford said, "Is this really what we're here for?" And I had to say,
2:58:24 "Well, whether it is or we're not it's actually a factor in our code to to look at right you know it you know so anyways there's
2:58:32 a lot of flexibility for what PNZ can consider based on these criteria gives a lot of discretion
2:58:40 and so what I'm looking for is you know there's seven people on PNZ there's five people on council so 12 different people with 12 different lenses if we can
2:58:49 identify collectively for piece of staff and and applicants and each other and the community um you know what what is
2:58:57 important what is it when someone comes you know what are you looking at to say this meets this criteria in my mind and
2:59:05 so I'm thinking we get these on a list we start going and then and we hash out okay yes we all agree on that one or
2:59:14 maybe that's just one person or maybe it's a valid point you know but that's what I was hoping to do today I love the idea what what you brought up
2:59:20 of maybe having a scorecard um you h having having something that that that's of value and this is my ninth year being on on on the planning and zoning
2:59:29 commission and and I could probably be checked out by a mental doctor for that but um but um you know trying to add
2:59:37 value. So I mean we're always trying to add value and and at at times over the last nine years there there's times when when you feel like you're of great value to the to the to the council and then
2:59:46 there's times where you feel that you're not providing any value at all and you vote either unanimously for and against and they vote the ex you know so
2:59:53 sometimes you don't feel that there's any connection but but I think at the end of the day we everybody on on the the um the commission spends a lot of
3:00:01 time and effort we go over this stuff we we have lengthy meetings and and I think that we all feel like we want to provide
3:00:08 value to the process and so I I I thank you for this opportunity to to come together uh because you know we we go
3:00:15 through all this and you know um in a month time we could spend 10 or more hours just you know preparing for this this one meeting and having the
3:00:23 discussion and we we want to feel that we're providing some some information that's going to add value in in the process. So, um, I think there there's a
3:00:32 lot of vetting that goes on. There's some information that comes out. Um,
3:00:35 oftentimes it it prompts the applicant to actually change things and make a little bit better project. So, I I think that the more we can know, you know,
3:00:44 what the council is is looking for and provide something of value. So, I I love that score card idea. So if if on
3:00:52 certain criteria if if we feel that you know we and we can even give you individual ratings that this is how each of us feel and and give you you know
3:01:00 some some some context because you know at the end of the day when we're we're just voting you know um 50 or three
3:01:08 whatever you know it's like it doesn't doesn't really give you um a huge feel for for where we are. So, I I I you
3:01:17 know, value the opportunity for us to to interact, maybe come up with w with with with some of those things. And, you know, I respect all the all the members
3:01:24 of of the commission I serve with. Some of them spend an incredible I I I try to spend spend some time doing this. Um I
3:01:32 I'm somewhat limited on how much time I can put into it and and and some of the members of the commission spend a lot more time than I do uh going over this on a monthly basis. So,
3:01:42 and I think a further value I'll add so that so that we all realize to your point bringing up the value is I would
3:01:49 love that from this meeting if we could take these criteria and send them over to DPZ because yes they're the experts
3:01:56 but they're they serve us and this is a group of people who dedicate so much time and talent and passion for this city but I think this is also an
3:02:05 opportunity for us as community leaders to be able to say to the consultant these are the things that we value in a new project that's coming forward. So,
3:02:14 it's twofold. One is hopefully we come up with a process, but then also I think it's it becomes a communication tool for our consultant.
3:02:22 Well, Mr. W, correct me if I'm wrong.
3:02:24 Um, we're trying to send that to DPZ what we value when we have a co ordinance and a set of codes that everybody can play by. Uh and that all
3:02:34 we have to do and that DPZ if that that's what they have to look at because that's what our guidelines say. When a person come here to devel for a project they go by what we have on the books,
3:02:44 right? But they're rewriting the book. Huh. They're rewriting the book.
3:02:48 Oh, well they they they ask for variances and everything else, but they have to fall within the standards that we have uh have laid out in our code.
3:02:57 I'm not sure. But I think what council member Strange is saying is that I because I have no idea where DPZ is at myself. I don't know what at what point
3:03:04 they are, but they might rewrite all the factors. Yeah. Is that what you're talking about?
3:03:09 I don't know. So I mean did they meet with all of you and No, we need to we need to sit down and wait to see see Well, I guess you can't
3:03:17 give them some standards on what you expect in there, but have they met with the P&Z members?
3:03:26 So I have a question and I may be totally off but if there is a list already as you said the scorecard
3:03:35 should not staff have that scorecard before they bring that information to us that they have reviewed it to ensure
3:03:42 that it meets those standards right that's the goal we don't have one now we don't have he said it's listed in
3:03:50 we have requirements but requirements but not a score. You have a you have a requirement in the ordinance and everything that they have to and when staff bring you right when the staff
3:03:59 bring it to you staff will gone to make sure that's why they give you their recommendation they've taking a look of all these things but when they ask for
3:04:07 bearings and everything they make sure everything is exactly our recommendation is based off of the standard so we tell you approval
3:04:16 or recommend that's based on that you've gone through so our scorecard would then be questioning
3:04:23 your expertise on whether you follow those standards or not. It does. Yeah. I mean, come sit with you.
3:04:30 Like with the variances, when they when they get a variance in the city council,
3:04:34 you there's like five factors and it's got to it's got to hit all five theoretically.
3:04:39 And so in the staff report, they always say what they think it scores and what it doesn't, right?
3:04:45 For example, but city council can override. Yeah.
3:04:50 I understand. And there's been times that we've gone against what they've said. Uh, for instance, the parking.
3:04:55 There was a parking situation with the office that we had uh the little office that was off of the That was going to be the house. The house the house. Yes, we had a breaking issue. And then,
3:05:04 you know, there was the the other thing that came up that you brought up a good point, which was the church and bringing up more trees. But there was there was
3:05:12 an issue there with if we put trees on the property, they wouldn't be allowed to come up with the parking requirements. So, there was some, you
3:05:19 know, issues. on that. So we there's been times where we've questioned ourselves.
3:05:25 I just don't want us to get an opinion where it becomes an opinion, right? Um you may
3:05:32 have a different than than than me and how do I base mine against yours and against the chair and
3:05:42 where do we end up? It seems like we would still be in the same situation to where everyone has their own opinion,
3:05:51 but we we could do a scorecard that would it would show every how everybody voted for why they voted that way.
3:05:58 So they I don't know how much detail you want to get into the scorecard, but but you could have a scorecard system where it would show your opinion on each of
3:06:06 these. to see what each commissioner felt about it and then council would know why we did what we did. Okay.
3:06:13 So, I've taken a stab at this trying because Alice and I spent inordinate amount of time discussing this
3:06:21 and and and I I I agree in principle and knowing that we have some we have 101
3:06:28 212C to be a starting point. simple and I'll give you an example of what what where I envision it going because I'm
3:06:36 the I'm the end user presenting to you is I'll give one example I've got 10 items on a list here policy
3:06:45 alignment comprehensive plan so under that it says consistent with the future land use map advances the goals and
3:06:53 policies of the comprehensive plan supports Clermont's intended growth pattern targeted not reactive under that it
3:07:01 either meets those criteria, meets with conditions or does not meet it. I'm sitting up there and I'm like I listen
3:07:07 to this staff. So, so also I I'll say I'm assuming that I'm going to say yes almost every time because staff has done
3:07:16 their job. I'm assuming that that that I'm here to and and I I shared this with
3:07:23 Kurt many times out of the meeting. I ask my questions almost specifically to ensure that for the record staff has
3:07:30 done their job for the record. For the record, we have an opportunity to vet these things out. But back to what I was originally saying, meets meets with
3:07:39 conditions does not meet and a little place for notes under there. At the end of the day, 10 of these things, whatever
3:07:45 10 they turn out to be, um, or whatever number turns out to be, we can say, "We support this with conditions. We deny it." Uh, or we or we request revisions.
3:07:56 But we've got different things. We can all sit up there and just sit there and go check this off. I hand it to Chair Colby when it's all done. He hands it to
3:08:05 to, you know, Ray when we're done, and she can compile these notes. Um, chair,
3:08:10 you're providing uh a synopsis for the council now, right?
3:08:15 So, you hand this in. It's got a, you know, I can write on here. I am absolutely dead set against this at the bottom. You know, pass this on. You guys
3:08:24 see our comments. I know most of you watch a lot of this on on the TV and so on, but um, this would give you kind of
3:08:33 unfiltered I think it's it's another level of information. So, so it used to just be the minutes and and recording,
3:08:39 right? And then and then um when Brian was the the chair came up with doing a report, so we're doing the but this is even a further explanation and and a closer connection, I think.
3:08:50 Well, and also not just the end, it's also the beginning. It's it's what standards are we using so that we don't get into the personal opinions. It's
3:08:59 more we've the purpose of this is to say, okay, we we have opinions. So I heard trees come up for example trees and this might sound silly trees that
3:09:07 like walkability walkability important every time you're going to ask that might sound like a silly question but really why are they important
3:09:15 well it's just like solid waste is important too I mean brings that up all the time and it is important because of the way people the the trucks driving in
3:09:22 and driving out we had an issue with the property so when are trees important why are they important and understanding what's going on in our heads because sometimes I
3:09:31 think we jump to this is the conclusion but we're not having a conversation about why that thing is important because some projects that come before
3:09:40 us are going to be like the industrial project okay some are going to be neighborhoods and I would suggest on the comprehensive
3:09:47 plan and alignment perhaps we say is it consist consistent with the plans for that neighborhood hopefully because there Clermont's now
3:09:55 26 square miles and what's good in one neighborhood may not be good in another and if we're not starting at the beginning and saying hey And do we want to or am I putting my stuff on you?
3:10:05 Do we want to say where is this project in the scheme of the planning? Is this close to a town center? Is this in a suburb? Are we
3:10:14 trying to get more churches here? Are we trying to get more grocery stores here? Are we trying to get more jobs here?
3:10:19 What is our vision? And and I think that if we continue to say Clermont is one place, I think we're really missing the
3:10:27 fact that Clermont is divided by 5027 and Wellness Way and and you know,
3:10:32 wellness way doesn't have any jobs. It doesn't have any parks. It doesn't have any commercial at all. You know, every neighborhood is different. So, I would
3:10:40 say what is the what are we looking for when we're saying is it compatible with the comprehensive plan
3:10:47 for that neighborhood? I think I mean what it says right now is because I I mean I have it in front of me every time I vote. This is what you know number one will not adversely affect the official adopted comp plan of the city.
3:10:58 Not the neighborhood it's the city. Yeah.
3:11:00 Then number two such use will not be detrimental to what you were talking about health safety or general welfare of persons residing working in the city.
3:11:07 Number three is the use will comply with the current regulations sit conditions specific to our codes. Again going back to our standards because those are our
3:11:15 codes that the mayor had said you know we have to be strict to that. And then the proposed use may be considered desirable at the particular location.
3:11:23 The desirable part is where that's where we all come in and start asking the question is that desirable and give it to city attorney. He always
3:11:32 throws it in our face and I'm always consistently looking at this. But the number four is the one that always hits me is is it desirable at a particular
3:11:41 and that's where I think that that's where we have to look. you know, is based on if it's in a specific parcel,
3:11:48 is it going to be, you know, is it going to be too much traffic on a a street that we know is kind of like more of a onelane street versus a two-lane street?
3:11:56 You know, those things come up. So, we try to bring that stuff up. Yeah. Um, so how do we know what we desire? Well, well,
3:12:02 that's the thing. I just that's the thing is that's going to always be the toughest one and that's where the tough decision come in. What's desirable and that's going to all depend upon,
3:12:11 right? what's your feedback from your from your residents out there, what they want in the community because one of the things I love what you just said and to go back
3:12:19 uh our comprehensive plan is written for the city, not for communities. Okay, that's correct. And everything you can't base, you know,
3:12:26 these things on a comprehensive plan because we don't have a comprehensive plan for every community. We have it for the city. So everything has to be based
3:12:33 upon upon that comprehensive plan. Now you go back to the land use code which we used to have and I guess we still got
3:12:42 a pretty good one. I I lost track of the land use code uh provision that we did years ago when I I fell out with a
3:12:48 couple people because um when they made it be or made it so you can just go and change the land use with three votes on
3:12:56 the council. Okay. And that's what we do all the time when we asking for variances and everything like that. So, but the hard part is is it desirable?
3:13:05 Because that's where we get the feedback from the people. Do they want this in their neighborhood and everything? But my question is when I sit there and look at things myself, does it check all the squares in our codes?
3:13:16 All right. Right. But we're rewriting our codes, right? Yes. That could be a change.
3:13:20 Yeah. And that's when I question I go back to looking at what staff had to say because they do the due diligence of going out there and making sure all that is done. And I find it very hard
3:13:29 sometimes uh usually when staff say they recommend denial that's first thing I'm looking at is if we deny this is any way
3:13:38 they can come back and sue us or do we make sure everything was taken care that if we deny it that we can't get sued
3:13:45 we are we allowed by law to require a certain number of neighbors to give us feedback in order for a project forward?
3:13:53 No. Uh, and which is something else I would like to while you thinking about why you got that and I'm thinking about it which I I think I mentioned to Kirk
3:14:01 before. I would like to see our notification to surrounding neighbors and property go a little bit further than the 100 or 200 feet we have right
3:14:09 now. I mean we going we going to do something. We we we f to do something in this community. We only notify two or three houses around around the area.
3:14:19 That's that's coming up very soon.
3:14:23 So that that need Well, I just want to throw that out there while I'm thinking about it. She made me remind remind me of that and something I've been meaning to talk to you about.
3:14:30 I have a very important question. I'm sorry. What should you get from your honor?
3:14:34 Uh uh but like I say, it goes back to the comprehensive plan and making that tough decision. And that's why I I rely on staff because I think our staff do a
3:14:43 fantastic job of going out and vetting all these projects and I really look at their recommendation and when they tell me they deny something I you know I get
3:14:52 a little little skeptical about it and I I don't want to go against their judgment because I think they they've done that and they they know the rules better than I do. I'll put it that way.
3:15:01 And and so I'm relying on expertise. and I go back and and I may question them sometime on. Okay. Will we be in trouble?
3:15:10 Yes, sir. Thank you. I'll come back to you, John.
3:15:14 Uh I hate going backwards, but by the time I wanted to jump into the conversation, we went two levels ahead.
3:15:22 Uh I we were asked to compose a list of what we I asked. Okay.
3:15:30 I'll be accountable for that.
3:15:31 Okay. Thank you for coming out by saying that. Look, I thought it was a great idea. All right. And I'll bet you if you listen to all the lists, majority of us have the same exact thoughts in mind.
3:15:42 But there's something on my list that I What list? Because I'm not aware of that list. What is the What is the actual list you were asked to create?
3:15:51 Okay. Maybe you should ask Mr. Strange because I don't want to mess it up.
3:15:55 Well, you you brought it up. I'm just asking you what is the list that you were asked to provide.
3:15:59 Okay. I have a list. I was asked to provide a list of what I feel is important to planning and zoning. Okay. Thank you.
3:16:06 We base our decisions.
3:16:08 Thank you. Or was that asked to all the planning and zoning members?
3:16:10 She she spoke to us individually if we were going to come up with a a scorecard. What What are the things that that we would want to see?
3:16:21 Okay. So on my list, I'm not going to read you the whole thing until I'm asked to. I have something called consistency.
3:16:29 Okay.
3:16:30 Now, he was sitting at that uh with me at that meeting. Kurt was at that meeting
3:16:38 and that's it. This was like around five, six years ago. We had that meeting with city manager Boltis
3:16:46 and we had a consultant sit right up there and she turned around to us and I was told even at the planning and
3:16:55 zoning training by manager Boltis that
3:17:02 we do not have to say how we voted with a yay or a nay.
3:17:09 You don't. Am I right or wrong?
3:17:12 You don't my You don't You don't So you don't even have to give an explanation why you voted the way. You can just say, "Hey, vote yay none about your business." Okay.
3:17:21 Okay. I'm sorry. I was Yeah.
3:17:24 Okay. So, when we just went around with the scorecards and putting this and then my fellow commissioner says, "I have no problem."
3:17:33 Oh, that's you. I'm That's my right not to vote and tell them how I vote.
3:17:38 All right. I'm not arguing to because we never had any automosity up on that stage with seven of us on stage. Okay.
3:17:46 So, I'm just a little confused. So, if somebody could rectify this to me because I was trained at two meetings,
3:17:54 two different training sessions on not exposing the way we voted by a city manager and a private consultant.
3:18:05 So that's what I mean about consistency and that's one of my top things on this list.
3:18:10 So it comes to us, it'll say how many voted 506 it just say 5 uh count PNZ voted 52 51
3:18:19 whatever whatever the vote is how each it doesn't tell us how each member voted but it is yeah and we don't if we're not comfortable
3:18:26 it's recorded how we voted. I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you. No, that's okay.
3:18:30 It's recorded how we voted, but it didn't state why we voted for that. Am I right, Kirk? Please help me.
3:18:36 That's right. That's what was given to you. And that's their reasons because that could possibly come back on them later.
3:18:43 Right. And that's one of the reason I know uh you started requesting that maybe we get a report from PNZ and everything. I never said anything, but I
3:18:50 wasn't too interested in it because even though I can sit there and I and when you tell me they voted five to one,
3:18:57 that's all I need to know. I don't need you to come and try to tell me this and that and everything because I always felt it was a little shady, a little a
3:19:04 little skeptical there before. I never pushed the issue and everything. So, um just tell me and I sometime I come back and they voted what 51 52 or whatever
3:19:14 because I don't need to know how they voted because and know it's not they don't have to tell me that to to your point. I mean let me say just two things just for the sake of clarity.
3:19:23 Um everyone does have to vote. They have to vote. Yeah. can't abstain, right?
3:19:28 Um unless conflict of interest, etc. But uh you're you're absolutely right. So if, for example, we did decide to have a
3:19:35 scorecard option system, it would be an option. There's no way we can mandate. That's all I want to justify. Thank you.
3:19:44 Does that make sense? That makes a lot more sense.
3:19:46 And and maybe the scorecard isn't the right way of looking at it. Maybe it's just your personal scorecard to help you
3:19:54 have the right questions and whether it gets turned in or not, it helps you as you're going along. It's like did it No, it doesn't have to be public record. No,
3:20:05 you're But if you if you take official notes on something that I think we need to defer to our council, that becomes a sunshine. I'm sorry.
3:20:12 record. Let me ask it this way then. If I'm taking note, if I have my notes, I my notes. These are my notes. They're
3:20:20 not going to go anywhere. I appreciate Yeah. this thought. You're protecting me.
3:20:25 But if these are my notes and I'm using it solely as does this if these are the things we all have agreed we're looking
3:20:33 for. This is my personal making sure that I haven't forgotten something because I know we all have our personal things we look for. May is going to make
3:20:41 sure that there are trees on there. If it comes to you, Allison, they're gonna make sure it's got walkability. That's right. Vince is absolutely gonna make sure that dumpsters are are addressed
3:20:49 for fire trucks to turn around. You know it like the back of your hand. You know what people's questions are going to be.
3:20:54 And if we know, then staff can help the get it right from the beginning. Right. Yeah.
3:20:59 But see, but see now when you I hear you what you're saying, but then when you sit there, you say, "I'm going to try to make sure it's walkability because
3:21:06 council member like uh strange like walkability. I like this one like trees." I think you overstepping then because you trying to make decision for council members.
3:21:15 Okay,
3:21:16 maybe I didn't say it properly. Mayor giving everybody a a
3:21:23 uniform personal checklist that they can use that that as as you know Vince is
3:21:32 asking questions. I'm sitting there. I'm observing the people. I'm watching what's going on, but I'm also going, okay, that aligns with policy, and yeah, that's there's got walkability in there.
3:21:40 Not that it's particularly for Councilman Strange's desire, but we know that I know
3:21:48 personally that she will ask that question if we don't in that meeting ahead of time, it's going to be asked. I know that Jenny's going to ask about is
3:21:56 there the right amount of, you know, are we looking out for our forest and our trees and our our foliage are out there? just we all have our tendency. Look,
3:22:05 this means that not that you better have to use it. Maybe I'm so good at this.
3:22:09 I'm like, you know, I only look at a few of these questions, but it make sure that you're that that no matter what, he
3:22:18 will always ask about making sure the fire truck can turn around. There's a turn radius. He will always ask that.
3:22:24 And it's we know that. Add that into our personal check. It doesn't have to be on my checklist, but it's always going to be on
3:22:32 if I can. I'm not I want to be responsible with the requests that I've made and also with my council members.
3:22:39 I'm not necessarily looking to say what is important to everybody so that we cover those bases. I am looking to say
3:22:46 what is important to this community so that we can work together as leaders in the community to achieve the end result
3:22:54 of fill in the blank. what is the end result? And and another point to add to
3:23:01 to your comments, um Mayor Murry, is that our current code is old. Not only is it old, which doesn't necessarily
3:23:10 mean it's bad, but it has led to an extraordinary amount of traffic, which is the number one complaint of the citizens. And we're working on an
3:23:18 amendment to the code. So, as we're working on an amendment to a code that has caused a great deal of traffic and
3:23:25 while we have a limited number of properties that can be developed, what I'm looking for is to engage all of us to say what are our guiding principles
3:23:34 as we're looking. Do we want safety? Do we want walkability? Do we want shade?
3:23:40 Do we want to have close? Do we want the residents who are near this property to have easy access by bike or golf cart to the school or walking to the local
3:23:49 school? What what are we applying? And is it a different standard if we're talking about something that's very commercial oriented like like a warehouse?
3:23:57 Like the warehouse that came before us?
3:23:59 Well, okay, it's industrial. It's an industrial space, but it's also one commercial block away from a thousand residents,
3:24:07 two commercial blocks away from a new town center that's coming online, and it's right across the street from 500 residents. So, how is it integrating
3:24:16 with 1500 homes that are within a softball's throw from this property and
3:24:23 and bike and golf cart ability from the town center? I think if you all had that lens when it came to you the questions
3:24:33 like when I was asking I was talking to their attorney like can we will you build the golf cart course the golf cart route to Waterbrook
3:24:41 will you build it will you at least build it to the Waterbrook neighborhood and we can go talk to the neighborhood folks but when they hear it by the time they get to me it's just too late
3:24:50 they've spent so much money on engineering there's nothing I can do at that point to get them to do something because They've gone through staff.
3:24:57 They've gone through P&Z. But if I can, it doesn't have to be just what I want.
3:25:02 That's why I wanted this to be a collective meeting. What are we collectively as volunteers in this community who have stepped up to lead
3:25:10 into the future? What is important to us when these projects are coming and asking for special treatment?
3:25:17 Looking forward to form based code.
3:25:20 I will tell you because it really will change dynamically change everything because that encompasses everything.
3:25:26 You're looking at it holistically and individually.
3:25:31 Is there any guidance that we can get? I know Mr. Matthysse I I see Mr. Norris I know Mr. W. I mean, can we get guidance
3:25:40 on this from staff on what the best ways are to make decisions in this realm?
3:25:47 As far as I mean, I I think yeah, I think with the new code, we tell them exactly what rules we want. And if they play by the rules, they get through very
3:25:55 quickly and easily. But if they don't want to play by the rules, then they come through and they go to council and all that. But we just got to tell them what rules we want and write that in the code.
3:26:04 That's where we are,
3:26:05 right? And and we can do that. There's DPZ is is the best of the best. So they they've done this all over. They know what the rules are. We just have to put our little spin on it.
3:26:15 Right. And that's and that's all I'm saying right now. We have we have a set of codes now, a set of orders now, and that's what we have to play by until we
3:26:22 get the new ones done. We got to play by what what we've been uh issued with. And I agree, they are old. I think this comprehensive plan, I can't remember
3:26:31 when we did this comprehensive plan, but it it's outdated. Master plan is outdated. It's all outdated. That's why we started trying to update it a couple of years ago because we realized it was
3:26:40 outdated. Okay. But right now with people coming before us, I I I know you like the Walkability. I know you like this and I like I say thousand times, I
3:26:49 I strongly believe in strong times. I read the book twice, okay, and everything. So I believe in it. But at this at this point, that's not part of
3:26:58 our code. We can't try to sit here and deny people that based upon that. So let's hurry up and get the code done. we get it in there, then we go go forward
3:27:07 with it from there. Right now, I just when people coming to us,
3:27:13 I just want us to play by the rules that's on the book.
3:27:15 But one of the rules is, is this desirable at that particular location?
3:27:19 Well, well, if it's not desirable and we want that's what I can say before,
3:27:23 that's where we have to take the tough vote opened.
3:27:25 That's where we have to take the tough votes. Okay. I I'm be like last council meeting, I think we had a issue on there about 711, right?
3:27:33 Okay. I think I voted against the 7-Eleven, not because I didn't think it was it was a good thing for it, but I
3:27:40 felt that, you know, uh, well, first of all, in the area where it's at, there's no service station, there's no
3:27:47 convenience store, no nothing for the people that are there. And you always talk about walkability and service bill and all that's here. and 7-Eleven would
3:27:55 have provided some service for them that to walk to. But I didn't like the fact that they were just going to throw it out there in the big open because I think in one of our conversation I think
3:28:03 Mr. Van Wagner we had with him. What did I ask him to do? I asked the developer to go back and put a big wall make it make it attractive. Kind of like the the
3:28:13 7-Eleven over here on Orange on Highway 50 and Orange Avenue.
3:28:17 You know, you can't even tell it's a 7-Eleven sitting back there.
3:28:20 That's come up so many times. can't even tell it sitting out there, you know, but and I asked him and you you you didn't even take any consideration of and I hear what the president was saying,
3:28:31 okay, about the 7-Eleven, but I I'm still sitting here saying, "Wow, we talking kind of like out of both sides of the mouth. We say we want walkability. We want these people to be
3:28:38 able to get to stuff without having to drive." Right now, where is where's the closest place for them to get gas thing?
3:28:46 And here's the other here's the other part other part with that was was the fact that We they could have put it in there and I think we could have made it attractive,
3:28:56 gave the people something something to do down there. I know it's supposed to be other commercial coming in along along the way and everything, but we we
3:29:03 got to give them some kind of service down there,
3:29:07 but not just throw it in there, but I I heard what the people said, so hey,
3:29:10 that's why I voted against it. Plus the fact that, hey, you got to make this thing attractive for the people.
3:29:15 I like that you added beauty to it. I think beauty is really important.
3:29:18 Yeah. See, and and I wouldn't and I know one of the comments people made that we don't put gas station next to people houses. I'm sorry. I I can tell you
3:29:26 three or four location right here right now. And the main one I always just jumped in my mind the same night we were sitting there talking was right up here on 455 Ray Good G. What's that? The
3:29:35 Rebel. What's the name of the subdivision right there behind across from room to go? Tons Lake area there. Yeah, the Tons Lake. Yeah. Yeah.
3:29:43 See gas station right there. and it's all out in the open and everything and no not very attractive. You come right down the road to what's at uh Greater
3:29:51 Hill. Got a big H right there. When you turn off 50, go in Greater Hill. What's the first thing you see? Gas station.
3:29:56 See? So, so these kind of things I've listened to people saying. I'm like, uh no, but let's make it attractive.
3:30:02 But I think in that case that one went and I we agree with staff that one went against the comprehensive plan for Wellness Way. Yeah.
3:30:08 Wellness way has a separate comprehensive plan. I then the comprehensive plan and said no gas stations. Well, well, the developer came to us and I think I told the developer
3:30:17 I'm not too happy with when he came and sat down with us. I wasn't too happy with it and if maybe I can I can buy it if they fancied it up a little bit.
3:30:26 Okay. Uh but I I do believe in I've made the decision is one where I voted on and put it in in a subdivision. We didn't make them fancy it up over here on
3:30:35 Washington and Hancock outside uh Highland Ranch on off of Hancock. Like really? We put that one out there. But
3:30:43 guess what? The people fought us about it, but we made the decision, put it out there, and they happy it's there now. See, because of the convenience,
3:30:51 but but this is where, you know, that's what I looked at. And of course, the reason I did that is because that's when the strong town we I'm I'm thinking
3:30:59 strong town concept. Let's get these people somewhere to go and not have to walk go five miles to get a gas uh loaf
3:31:06 of bag of loaf of bread, some bread or get gas or whatever, you know. And what could have happened in that scenario
3:31:13 would have been if the developer had put the convenience store actually on the edge of the property, right?
3:31:20 So that people could have walked to the convenience store rather than having to walk across a parking lot. So you know
3:31:28 things that you know I'll put out there is pretty much so that you're all aware so everyone's aware. If I see a donut I
3:31:36 don't like it. And what I mean is a a concrete building surrounded by asphalt at this point. If I see that, I don't
3:31:43 like it. I I we we have very few properties left and that's what our code allows. But that doesn't make it desirable in my mind. Now, I'm just one
3:31:52 of five. Um so if I see if I see a donut, I don't like it. And um and and
3:32:00 that addresses trees, it addresses walkability, it addresses safety. And that was why when the project came that was over by floors and decor. I said,
3:32:08 "Hey, can you put the buildings up on the property boundary so we could maybe have a courtyard in between? You could put trees in there. Parking's on the
3:32:17 outside and you can create a a place for humans in between the buildings." Of course, they're already to me, so it's
3:32:24 too late for me to make suggestions like those. Yeah. Go ahead. Uh, so can we hear what everyone has or what they
3:32:31 think should be on the scorecard so that we can come to Isn't it in four months we're going to have the DPC recommendations?
3:32:40 Mr. Norris, do we know when DPC is going to have the recommendations to us? Yeah.
3:32:57 So they would want this feedback during that public process, right?
3:33:08 Shouldn't they be coming back doing a public presentation showing what we got and then get feedback? More feedback from the public is I'm assuming it be the next process.
3:33:17 Do you have preferences?
3:33:22 It's done both ways. So ideas,
3:33:28 but well, I'm anticipating them coming back and showing us what their their recommendation is to the public and the public give feedback and say, "Yeah, nay
3:33:36 before they go find them." Is Oh, yes. Okay.
3:33:40 Are we Can we hear from everyone what their list are? Because I know we haven't heard from Mr. Teddona down there and other people.
3:33:48 Vinnie, are you done?
3:33:49 Mr. Yes, sir. I I didn't I know you down there. I know. We were trying to get through Vinnie. I'm sorry.
3:33:57 I'm sorry. Yes, sir.
3:33:58 I I want to thank you all for taking the time uh to come together. Um I'm the newest guy. Um I'm probably the thorn in
3:34:07 everyone's side, but I think I see things a little bit differently and I'll take a cue from the training from this morning. So, I do see things
3:34:16 differently. I have concerns which is why I send you all the research that I
3:34:22 do when we talk about trees the 330300 rule that is established in Europe.
3:34:29 There's studies that talk about how trees do great. I am definitely willing to explore all kinds of options for the benefit of the residents of Clermont.
3:34:37 And for clarity I am not challenging anyone in this room but I do challenge some of our proposals.
3:34:45 We agree that the codes are 2009 and I made mention that outside this building it's 2026.
3:34:54 So some of the things when we get the packet is and maybe this is where a
3:35:01 scorecard is use useful is that I know I look at the big picture of the packet
3:35:08 and then I start doing my research. So it takes me a lot longer, you know, and I'm getting up to speed. But we try to
3:35:15 get additional information to the council so that you all can make a good decision. Sometimes additional questions
3:35:24 are necessary. And the first two that come up to mind is we had a church on West Montrose
3:35:33 who wanted to fit 130 people in the church and that was all that was in the packet. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. No,
3:35:42 we do have an issue that's that's coming up for All right. So, I can't talk about it.
3:35:46 All right. So, let's just aren't allowed to talk about it.
3:35:49 Let's just say that the questions we ask sometimes are based on previous meetings
3:35:57 where our Clermont residents have brought up their concerns for life
3:36:04 safety issues and quality of life issues. So, we ask a couple extra questions.
3:36:12 Some of them, I guess, are now on public record. Some of the answers are on public record. Uh, did you all handle salt shack already?
3:36:21 Yes.
3:36:21 Okay. So, thanks to the planning zodia committee through the questions that were asked that day, the applicant
3:36:29 agreed to put signs up on the railings so people wouldn't even cuz human nature, nobody talks about human nature
3:36:37 in any of these packets. Nobody would come up with a scadoo or a kayak and more to this thing thinking they could
3:36:44 get access to the salt shack to have something to eat. That came about because of us. when we talk about different kinds of traffic and I know I
3:36:53 realize we can't talk about traffic but you can't live in Clermont not realizing that you need to do everything
3:37:02 you need to do before noon otherwise it's going to take you two and a half hours to get where you want to get um when I know I'm going to jump around a
3:37:11 little bit but part of what I feel is important is and while we're allowed to
3:37:19 do with is negotiate with developers a little bit and ask those questions. Now,
3:37:26 I've sent all of you information on SB180 and I believe SB844.
3:37:34 Neither one of them address the burdensome claim. So, you are already under the gun.
3:37:42 The last thing that was just signed into law by the governor, it's either HB399 or SB399.
3:37:51 And you all have mentioned before, well,
3:37:54 we're going to make sure it fits in the neighborhood. Well, we're going to make sure it's desirable. Guess what? SB 399
3:38:01 takes that all away. You cannot use that any longer as a means to deny a project.
3:38:10 As a matter of fact, if the developer is making the tiniest minutest
3:38:16 considerations to your comp plan, which is going to be updated by DPZ, you lose the argument. So, with all due respect,
3:38:27 it's not, hey, this is our comp plan for 2026. It's our rules or the highway. It does not it's not going to work that
3:38:34 way. the five of you have more going against you than you probably realize.
3:38:41 So in addition to that comp plan, in addition to your impact fees, in addition to maybe talking about mobility
3:38:48 fees, in addition to different kind of shies, you're going to have to have somebody look this over so that it is foolproof. because even with 2026,
3:38:59 somebody could walk in here and still try to make a deal and you're not going to have a leg to stand on.
3:39:06 And and you know what, with all due respect, Mr. mayor, if that's what makes, you know, my be me bringing that up or asking a question to try to get a
3:39:15 little bit of a triage card or a scorec card where, you know, maybe the code and the code does have some gray area like
3:39:23 city attorney was saying where, you know, I don't always have to vote yes,
3:39:29 you know, and not for anything. I've sat in that audience when a majority of you
3:39:36 said if you would have known before wellness way was approved what it was going to happen if you would have
3:39:44 asked that question if you would have gotten more clarification you may have done something in different towards that design me personally I don't want to
3:39:53 drag any of my uh committee members in that's all I'm doing I'm just trying to ask a question so when it gets to you it
3:40:01 becomes, you know what, we didn't think of that or oh my goodness, that is that has the possibility of being a future
3:40:09 problem. So, I'm sorry if I'm the thorn in everyone's side, but you know, I came down here 8 and 1/2 years ago and 8 and
3:40:18 1/2 years later, I'm back in New York and that's not what I wanted. As a matter of fact, that's what most of you
3:40:25 down here in Florida told me. Don't New York my Florida. And I haven't. So that's what drives me and I again I
3:40:33 thank you all for your time for that and I appreciate it and I and I thank you sir and I'll uh
3:40:42 may I say something your honor first of all you said it twice you're not a thorn in my back John. All right and I could call you John because I know you from Staten Island for almost 30 years. Okay.
3:40:53 So, when I hear that when I hear that there's far the sunshine law that's being broken
3:41:02 because we see you on videotape talking to John. I could be talking about the deli I just found out where we met for
3:41:09 first closed down burn because of a fire or we used to get Aunt Sally's pastries. I'm still looking for a good canola.
3:41:16 Okay.
3:41:19 But on on a different note, I just want to state for the record, you're not a thorn. And I could tell you right now,
3:41:24 there's a lot of people here and they probably agree with me. They just don't want to speak up. Thank you, sir.
3:41:29 I appreciate because you bring a lot of knowledge to that board,
3:41:32 especially with those documents you give them. Well,
3:41:36 I'm sorry, your honor. I didn't mean to cut. No, you're okay. You're okay. U go back.
3:41:40 I'm very and I think I try to keep the council very informed on on things that's going on in Tallahassee that's going to take our rights away. Um home
3:41:49 rule is under great attack. I'll put it that way. Just about every day it's more rules. That's like I I think I mentioned
3:41:57 what was it 1329 the last council meeting which is hacking our finances and all that again. Uh 180 you know I
3:42:04 went up and spoke against 180 uh some years ago. I went up and spoke against the local rule uh live local law. I've
3:42:11 been up in Tallahassee trying to fight these things. Thank you.
3:42:14 And they these things keep coming and I keep an eye on them and I'm I know Mr.
3:42:20 War kind of keep eye on them and sometime I catch them off guard with some of them everything when I ask him about things but I don't get the full gest of them
3:42:29 and it's it's a couple more that's coming down the road right now that's coming at us, you know. Uh but it's constantly taking our home rule away
3:42:37 from us. It is.
3:42:38 And one that's I'm really afraid of, I think I kind of missing missing it before was the uh uh enterprise fund,
3:42:45 what they going to actually do with enterprise fund, you know, because if they end up doing what I think I hear they hear them doing and everything,
3:42:53 that's going to take a lot of weight finance and a lot of control on our extra territories out there.
3:42:58 Okay. So we you and that's why I try to keep eye on on there. Um, I don't think some of you may not know this, but I
3:43:06 guess I just got to let you know why I I am actively involved in that. Um, I think they just sent me a notice a
3:43:14 couple weeks ago. I think you may have gotten Mr. Bwagon where they actually f to award me with a home hometown hero that's trying to fight against that taco home uh for the fight we've been doing.
3:43:25 It's about five of us here in Lake County that's f to get that award that's been fighting against some of the stuff they trying to do fighting against some of the stuff going on in Tallahassee.
3:43:33 But but very well true. I mean and it's coming so so fast, man. You can't keep
3:43:41 up with it. you it just appear it just seems like any it's like a wicked game of chess with the state legislature because as you're implying you know we make a move to try
3:43:50 to get something better and they close the loophole and then you know so I mean even you know we can agree to disagree
3:43:59 and I I don't have demographics in front of me that we may be running out of room to build on but the next phase like they
3:44:07 did on Staten Island is that these developers are going going to start approaching the people that have 5 acres, 10 acres, 12 acres. I be give you
3:44:16 cash for your farm. You're out of the way. And that's what's going to start appearing next are these two, three, 400
3:44:23 home units, right? Or or we go up or you know what? And and thank you. Thank you
3:44:30 for even doing that because maybe maybe and I'm not saying if we do this right maybe that's where that strong town
3:44:39 technology methodology can come in right now your hands are tied with what's out there but in that next phase when
3:44:47 somebody is now saying I'm going to put 400 homes in there maybe we have more of an ability to say it's a mixeduse I mean
3:44:54 look last point New York is walkable. It's a park. It might not
3:45:03 be the greatest example, but you have businesses, homes, apartments, and and you all you got to do is walk across
3:45:12 well, Central Park. Last meeting, I brought in a picture. New York City is talking about an initiative called open
3:45:19 streets where they want to take an Madison Avenue and extend the sidewalk and make it a walking plaza treelined.
3:45:28 Why? Because the first floor, ground floor is all retail. Second and third floor, I could go see my dentist, my doctor, my lawyer, my accountant,
3:45:37 anybody I want. Fourth floor and above are apartments. I don't even need a car.
3:45:43 So if we have that opportunity going forward with something new based on a DPZ code based on negotiating we're
3:45:53 going to have to start doing it because eventually the state legislature like you said and God bless you sir going to take it away from you
3:46:00 and everything in the state legislator you mentioned earlier about DPZ code it's not going to make any difference whether it's DPZ or whoever with some of
3:46:09 the rules they putting in up there especially that 180 I mean that's a tough that's a tough one there. Uh we can't make it any more
3:46:17 intense than anything else. Uh but at the same time we have to live by
3:46:24 live by it and we going to look at DPZ and see what's going and I'm I'm be honest with you I'm really really ready to see what's going to happen and and I think the only reason why
3:46:33 speaking for myself that I will and I apologize venture I don't want to say venture outside of our code is because some of the people that do come up to
3:46:41 the microphone the residents bring up some very good concerns about life safety and quality of life, which and
3:46:50 I'm not saying that supersedes the nine criteria and the four and the three and the seven that are over here,
3:46:55 but you know, part of our job is to at least get you that information so that you can make that decision to say yes or no.
3:47:02 Well, one of and one of the things I look at when I'm up there making my decision is uh would I want it in my community? Yes, sir.
3:47:10 And everything. That's the toughest thing. And of course, I happen to live in a pretty good community where I can actually if I wanted to walk to the grocery store.
3:47:18 Yes, sir. got a schools in around I and of course I grew up there and that's what we had when it grew up except for the city made us take our little
3:47:25 convenience stores and stuff outside out out of the community. So now I have to walk a little bit further to win Dixie but but anyway
3:47:33 so before I before I jump in on the list I would rather I want to hear uh Vinnie first because I know he said he had a
3:47:40 list that basically would be something that we would probably agree to. I would like for you to finish on that since Vinnie if that's okay.
3:47:47 If that's all right with you, you're on. No, he never finished.
3:47:50 I don't finish. That's why I was trying to Okay.
3:47:52 Yeah. So, Vinnie, if you could I just want to move on with the meeting. Thank you, Miss May.
3:47:55 Commissioner May, I should say. All right. Look, if for my fellow commissioners, we're not breaking the sunshine law. If you have it on yours,
3:48:03 just mark it off because I could tell you right now, I'm looking at one, two,
3:48:08 three, four, five, six, seven, eight items that were all in agreement on my Listen, everybody in this room knows I'm Mr. Traffic. I have traffic concerns,
3:48:19 parking, lack of traffic, parking. All right, I know we got audiences, but I have a little common sense, especially when I got 20 people coming up to that
3:48:27 microphone in front of us. There's an exaggeration. 10 people coming up to the microphone saying where am I going to park? This is going to bring more people
3:48:35 in. I do listen to that. I also pay attention to the ingress and the egress.
3:48:40 I'm the same bullet points. Uh Councilman Strange said that my my point with the traffic concerns safety for
3:48:47 children and adults. All right. Kids don't know any better. They're going to chase a ball that got hit. All right.
3:48:54 Here's my biggest thing and I take this from late Jim Pervvis. Smart development. overcrowding size 10 going
3:49:01 into a size six. We had one with a community that went in and culac and went out. It was so
3:49:10 overcrowded. It was ridiculous. I'm glad that the directors turned around and denied it at first and then they changed it around.
3:49:20 All right. Uh impact fees.
3:49:24 I don't want to go that how it's going to impact on our first responders,
3:49:29 fire, police, ambulance, and so on. All right, I'm just hit my bullet points. Just check it off, guys, if you haven't.
3:49:36 A more detailed packet. This is important, and I'm not throwing my planning and zoning department under the bus, but I need better updated maps.
3:49:46 All right, you all know what I'm talking about. I'm getting a map
3:49:54 That's so outdated. It's not funny. I go on my own maps and I'm being told I can't go on my own maps at home.
3:50:03 I can't use Lake County interactive map.
3:50:08 Yeah, I know. That's what I said. H because when we came up to the salt chat and I could talk about it because you
3:50:16 guys voted on it. I got a map in my packet. Well, I got an incomplete packet first of all, but I got a map in my packet showing the property line's not
3:50:25 even close to the water. When I went on Lake County in inter uh in interactive,
3:50:31 the property line was 20 ft in the into the lake. So, when John brought up at
3:50:38 the PNZ meeting on the pillars, I looked to I said, I remember seeing it that was
3:50:44 online, but it wasn't in our packet. So why do I get a 30page report online that
3:50:52 it's not in the packet that we were handed? And Kurt, I'm not throwing you under the bus. So the solution I came up with, let me go to meet PNZ on Monday,
3:51:04 the day before, like the council goes to agenda review. Let me talk it over with them. Okay. And then I asked one
3:51:12 question, the last one I went to. Do we have any opposition on the church? Very simple question. He
3:51:20 says, "Yes, we just got this today." And he handed it to me. I said, "Wow, this is I'm missing stuff." Then when I looked at it, I said to myself,
3:51:31 "Well, there's more to it." But it was sent the week prior.
3:51:37 Now I'm really confused. That's what I mean about updated maps, exact property
3:51:44 lines. The packet is to me, I don't know about my fellow commissioners, but I'm doing this
3:51:51 for six years. It's still vague. Maybe because it meets the criteria that the mayor was talking about, and I get it,
3:51:59 but there's still questions I'd like to know before I base my decision. Okay.
3:52:05 consistency with the codes that look I just went over consistency before. I'm not going to repeat myself.
3:52:12 Future land use map. I agree with with the mayor. We're so outdated it's not funny. We're in 2026. We're using codes from 200 what you say your honor 2009.
3:52:23 I don't I can't remember.
3:52:24 I can't even remember myself and I've been here for almost nine years. Okay. And that's not long enough. Okay.
3:52:31 Water sewage impacts. This is important because this is where I like Miss Commissioner May. Trees prevent the water flow.
3:52:40 Okay, with their roots, okay, the environmental. That's again, Miss Jenny May, she brings that up. So, I'm hoping
3:52:48 that she's at these meetings. So, I'm not going to bring it up. My biggest thing is trash. Trash to me is important because I almost had a development, my
3:52:57 development almost had a building with the dumpsters right on our property line. I said, "Look, you guys got to move this around."
3:53:04 All right. Main thing I got from one of the council members was, "How does this project benefit Clermont?" I like that question and I always try to compromise,
3:53:16 but most importantly, the surrounding community residents input. All right. I
3:53:23 I'm just like what the mayor said, I have to listen to them. Okay. But there are ways to if you can't go in the front door, you can go in the back door. Okay?
3:53:34 And the most important fact, and Mr. W,
3:53:37 don't take it personally, please. We need proper legal guidance. Okay? And I understand you knew I'm only working
3:53:46 with you for one year. I worked under Mr. Damon Zaris.
3:53:51 It seemed like we didn't get along. We got along just fine, we really did. And I'm not putting you down. Please, I I got to watch how I say things.
3:54:00 Mr. Dam and Zaris gave every one of us straight lines, a line,
3:54:07 and if I came close to that line, he would give me a sign. He would cough and if I went a little bit too far from the line, he would say, "Vincent."
3:54:18 And then after the meeting, I got scolded. And I don't mind getting scolded because I was brand new. But I was so
3:54:26 what's the word I so regiment to his teachings.
3:54:30 I I I feel bad because he told me I wasn't allowed to do this because now I have to save this because this as Mr.
3:54:38 es said, Councilman es, I'm sorry. This is public record because I wrote it is not a public record. That's not I wrote on this. I was told by Mr.
3:54:48 Menzawas. I cannot highlight on it and I cannot write on it because then I have to submit it to Kurt. I remember that meeting very well.
3:54:55 I guess you're getting upgraded legal counsel.
3:54:57 Thank you. I love it. So that's that's mine. So just by a show of hands just
3:55:06 showing hands you the commissioners. How many had at least five of these items I just said on your list? One, two, three. Okay.
3:55:14 So, we're in Okay. So, when I'm sorry to say, but when I
3:55:22 hear that we're a black eye, I feel like it's my fault because listen, I do reach. I reach and I reach and I reach
3:55:31 until I find it because I'm glad I took that course with you guys. Why? Because there was something in it that me and you have in common.
3:55:41 Okay? And it's bad that we have it.
3:55:44 Okay. To give respect, you have to earn respect, you have to give respect. If I catch you lying, I'm going to start
3:55:52 losing respect for you. That's what we both have in common. That's bad for us.
3:55:58 And I just realized it's sitting here for two hours. Listen to that lady.
3:56:03 Okay. But this is what I mean to say. So if I'm that black guy, I'll try to change. I'm making a difference. Now ask
3:56:11 Kurt and John. I'm meeting with them every Monday at 10:30. Right, Kurt? Yes, sir. And if it has to change, we change it.
3:56:18 Not this month. I'm going away. You got it.
3:56:23 I don't think you're a But that's it. Thank you for letting me speak.
3:56:28 Vince, if I may, just give me a moment here. Okay. if I may, because you you and I have a wonderful relationship and
3:56:35 I think what what what it comes down to is you're very very passionate and you have a strong personality and so when
3:56:42 you you know I'm really talking personally to Vince right now, but you have a strong personality and and that's because of your passion and your
3:56:51 demeanor at the last meeting. Your passion was still there, but your professionalism was elevated. You were on your agame because we were all on our
3:56:58 agame because we know that we were being evaluated, but your agame was I mean you were shooting three-pointers. You were your agame was there. And if you were
3:57:07 bring that presentation level every time and you're doing this homework, I'm impressed with that. You're doing homework ahead of time and now I feel like I've got to catch up because I'm very
3:57:15 I'm still catching up to Councilman es. He said an you know what he said an amazing example and truly I want to emulate that same kind of productivity
3:57:25 and professionalism but you adapted once we got the feedback and that's I think I think that's kind of how we all feel if
3:57:33 if one of us needs the feedback you you were kind because you gave us all the feedback when you really were trying to give feedback to maybe you know several
3:57:41 people but you took the feedback and you brought your agame up And I think that's
3:57:49 really what everybody wanted to get to today was let's let's let's all bring our agame. Let's compliment the people who are making that that change. You
3:57:58 know, I've watched each one of the council members adapt on the spot. I've watched people that I thought with very strong compassion, you know, convictions
3:58:05 go, you know what, I'm going to adapt in the moment. And you were able to do that. And John, you you know, you bring
3:58:12 a very strong almost a educational voice. You you bring you have your educational moment every week.
3:58:20 Every I look, you know, it's we're very predictable now in the way we do things.
3:58:25 But Vince's bringing that that a game last week or last meeting, I was impressed
3:58:33 and and I was so pleased because I'm still very new.
3:58:39 I sit there, there are times when it's like there's a difference between a cup and a pud, you know, you know, at the at
3:58:47 the beginning you're like, well, first I wish I knew what one of those was, you know,
3:58:53 but we're all a different stage. We're all learning and and I think the your goal, Mayor, has been accomplished by what you're seeing today.
3:59:03 was your goal was probably the same thing, but you just approached it a different way. If we had a consistent way of looking at
3:59:12 things and then you bring up very good things like, well, we got to be careful what we document, right?
3:59:16 This is to me has been an extremely productive meeting. I I've enjoyed this way more than I thought it was going to.
3:59:23 If we get to a scoreard, I don't rate if we don't. We all have our personal scorecards. We know that now. But I I just want to say for the record, Vince,
3:59:34 good job.
3:59:35 Thank you. I appreciate that. But sometimes I need to be pulled back even by my fellow commissioners.
3:59:40 Am I getting permission from your fellow commissioners to maybe give you a heads up? Well, I So, you know, a lot.
3:59:49 Oh, he's he's looking to you. He's looking to you, you know. How about Mr. Colby? Can we one?
3:59:55 Yeah, Mr. China, but he went the wrong way on that one. He tried that because I'm time getting Did you finish your list? I'm not sure Jenny.
4:00:05 Oh, nice. A lot of it a lot of it is is is Benny. That's why I wanted to hear yours,
4:00:10 Benny. I wanted to add in um I mean, let me tell you, every time he brings up dumpsters and I go and drive
4:00:17 and I see a dumpster that's in a place that's in the wrong spot. I mean,
4:00:21 specifically, there's one I can tell you exactly where um in the crossroads, I think, where Swigs is and the doors
4:00:29 always open and everybody has to go around the dumpster. It's just it's just crazy. He makes sense when it comes up to dumpsters. It was so funny when I first
4:00:37 the commission, he always brought D. I'm like, man, that does make sense. Um other stuff that that is important that never comes up are crosswalks,
4:00:47 um sidewalks, you know, those things.
4:00:50 things. I mean, every time the thing gets, you know, the property gets built,
4:00:52 there's no sidewalks. There's no, you know, part of that walkability. But crosswalks, we we added crosswalks, just to let you know, as part of the the new
4:01:00 development that's going across from from Dicks because we were like, "Okay, well, these apartments are going there.
4:01:05 They're going to be jaywalking, you know, across the street." So,
4:01:08 where is where is that? I'm sorry. Where is that?
4:01:10 Uh, across from Dicks, there's a new development. I think it's WG development. Uh it's the same developers that brought the the White Castle and so
4:01:18 it's right behind behind it.
4:01:19 Not behind in front. So it's right on right on right on 50th. They were removing they were removing uh they were removing bushes and trees and so I said well you
4:01:28 know if you're doing that you have to give us something. And I think we added the crosswalk. Let's check into that because I thought they were supposed to been put sidewalk all that they supposed
4:01:36 to had sidewalks on. I thought that was correct.
4:01:39 Not in a particular there was another section but we did add crosswalks because there was no crosswalk. So, you know, Crossbox, you know, he brings up a
4:01:46 lot and and you aren't a thorn. I'm just I agree with him. This, by the way, half of this is the documentations that he
4:01:54 always brings to the meeting and I read them.
4:01:56 So, and I have it with me and it's a lot. It's it's good stuff. So, keep it coming. But he brings a lot of stuff that that that doesn't come up, which
4:02:05 are the crosswalks and the egress and ingress. How a a car goes in and how a car comes comes out of a project. you know, it causes all this traffic on 27th. I mean, you know, all that. Um,
4:02:17 the impact fees, annexation is another one of my I guess
4:02:24 items that I don't understand because it's so hard for us to,
4:02:28 you know, it comes in front of us after the fact,
4:02:30 you know, and I've talked to annexations.
4:02:33 The annexations. I mean, there was that one one particular project, Hab Bridge,
4:02:37 it it was already it was already bulldozed. saying the zoning does come zoning without the annexation though, right? Okay.
4:02:45 It came right. Exactly. Well, it was already annexed. It was already annexed before the fact that it came to us and it was already bulldozed. Streets are already in.
4:02:54 The parking didn't make sense because there were small, you know, trees were already bulldozed down. There's no wildlife. Wildlife is another big deal
4:03:02 for me. Wildlife is never considered in any of this. It's considered in the comp plant, but it's never considered because once you get rid of the trees
4:03:10 and I'm I'm a big time person because especially with that um industrial site that's all there's so many trees on that
4:03:18 property and I'm thinking why can't they build around or you know I see these other cities right with trees and they build around these trees and but no we
4:03:27 just bulldoze these trees and sometimes unfortunately it goes to the county first and they just bulldoze it down and then it comes to us. So um but the flu.
4:03:36 I think he's completely correct. I mean,
4:03:39 um, for us to we look at the future land use, it's already there because the, you know, it's already been changed. So, if you feel like something should be
4:03:46 mixeduse, it's not. It's already an industrial site or it's already a PUD or it's already it's it's kind of hard for
4:03:53 us to I mean, I think PUDs are a little bit different. I guess get rid of those.
4:03:57 But if something's already zone commercial, it's hard to, you know, for us. I mean, do we really make those recommendations?
4:04:04 No. It's it those those are what you guys have to do, not us. I mean, we can't say, "No, we don't want you to do a commercial there." You know, we kind
4:04:11 of we're we're kind of strapped, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, maybe you should do a mixeduse there, right?
4:04:18 But we can't because the flu says it's commercial. We don't have the authority. We're just we just recommend, you know,
4:04:24 and then so we're kind of stra, you know, strapped in in what we can say or what we can't say. But, I mean, there's just a lot. But hopefully this u form based code is going to work.
4:04:34 Unfortunately, it's just one quadrant.
4:04:37 It's not the entire quadrant. And there's other quadrants that really need a formbbased code, but we're only basing on down downtown. So, or the northwest
4:04:46 quadrant. So, hopefully if the Northwood quadrant, it works well. Hopefully, it kind of spreads to the other quadrants.
4:04:53 But, um I think you nailed it except for the except for the the proper legal. You know, you've
4:05:01 always answered my questions when I had it. So, but maybe kind of just but maybe be a little bit voicy. Maybe that's what he wants you to do. But um
4:05:09 the problem is um when you look at the factors there there are times when I I would like to step in as a matter of tone, but from a legal perspective,
4:05:20 the the the factors are so vague and so broad that almost everything you bring up is legal, you know, and if it was illegal, I'd stop you.
4:05:31 Or she'd stop you. Well, yeah. And and I have a couple times and you know, so for example, like when Commissioner Tedona says, "Sometimes I go beyond the code."
4:05:39 That's illegal. You can't go beyond the code. Um so please don't do that. Yeah.
4:05:44 But but but um when when someone asks a question, this is why I had to tell Mr. Crawford when he got upset at Vinnie. I had to say,
4:05:53 "Actually, it's a factor. It's it's, you know, we can argue about whether or not it's super relevant for the site plan.
4:06:00 We can argue about whether or not he's justified in asking, but he's allowed.
4:06:05 So, you know, the the commissioners have a lot of discretion. It's almost unbridled in in what can be asked based
4:06:13 on honestly that word desirable because desirable can mean so many things. site planning. I mean, it talks about um
4:06:23 avoidance of environmentally sensitive areas, but then in parenthesis, flood planes, steep slopes, unstable soil, drainage, or wetland areas. I mean,
4:06:31 literally anything you want to talk about could come up. Okay.
4:06:36 It sounds like he's manzer 2.0 is what I All right. Uh hold on, Miss H. Did I didn't hear your list or do you have one?
4:06:44 Everyone has covered the things on my list. Okay. I don't feel a need to repeat the things that have already been said. Okay.
4:06:50 What I would like to know is so that we can move forward and we've had this discussion. Will there be a checklist?
4:06:57 Can we do a checklist? Does everyone have to turn in a checklist? If we turn in a checklist, does that make our vote known and become a public record? That's
4:07:06 where I am because we have all said basically the same thing. Our lists are somewhat compatible the same. But where
4:07:13 do we go from here? That's where I need to go. Where do we go from here? What do we do? What are our next steps?
4:07:20 Because we can talk about the list, the list, the list, but what do we do with the list? Will there be a checklist? And where do we go from here?
4:07:26 I think I think you're right. Good point. I think they should have a checklist that's like uniformity. So when um developers come, they know these
4:07:35 are the things that you all are looking for and you need to have this as answered for you when they come so they're not taken off guard. So they can
4:07:42 say that you're being fair and not, you know, you're being right?
4:07:46 Whatever the word you want to use. Um I I think that is what you all should do is come up with okay we have 10. So we
4:07:54 make sure these are the 10 minimum things that you're going you probably already do something.
4:07:58 Well no but but it is it our task to do that or is it council we're providing the council council. I waiting on her go
4:08:06 have Mr. W give us a legal rule in there. Well let me say a couple things. I mean,
4:08:12 first of all, uh, back when Commissioner Bane was chair, he got ahead of this a little bit and asked me to give you those standards. So, you may remember
4:08:19 that. That was an effort to try and standardize just to keep everyone on track with the factors.
4:08:25 Um, so that's the the minimum that has to be done. That's the minimum checklist, right?
4:08:31 Um, because you have to consider those things. I think what you y'all are talking about to me it comes in the form of what I would call staff guidance to
4:08:40 an applicant. These are the kinds of things that I think need to be brought up at a the the preapp post app kind of
4:08:48 meetings with staff like look when and and I don't mind having writing but it it can only be guidance. It can't be
4:08:55 something we hold them to because it's not in our code. And to to that point, um, if there was something I
4:09:04 I think the the the dis the disjoint between when something is a public record and when it's not a public record. It's not a public record when
4:09:13 it's a handwritten note and is what we call transitory. So, a lot of the notes you've taken here today are not public records because they're just meant for
4:09:21 your personal use. They're not meant for the uh storage of public knowledge that we keep in city hall. And so that the a scorecard would be different.
4:09:34 Okay.
4:09:34 How you rate something just like a uh procurement when they rate that's public record.
4:09:40 So that's kind of the distinction between what y'all were talking about.
4:09:44 But in a procurement situation, you can say evaluator one, evaluator two.
4:09:49 We don't know who those people are, do we? No. Well,
4:09:52 not necessarily. I mean, you do, but you don't. Yeah. Yeah.
4:09:55 They're they're public records. So, so I I see what you're saying. Um, we we know
4:10:02 but if you say by uh evaluator one evaluator too, once it goes public record, wouldn't you have to attach a name?
4:10:12 Uh, you mean after like something's been scored on an RFP? Yeah. Well, or are you talking about this? For this, you know, she was saying no,
4:10:21 we'd have to evaluate one.
4:10:23 Yeah. Are we able to say for That's an interesting question.
4:10:27 I'm not even sure I'm advocating for this. I'm just thinking one of the suggestions was meets meats with conditions does not meet.
4:10:36 In my mind, when I had envisioned this,
4:10:38 I had envisioned like a scale of 1 to 10 where we might each individually scale this uh and you know it might get a
4:10:46 score. So like on connectivity to the surrounding neighborhood, it might get a six or it might get a 12 from an individual commissioner. So when
4:10:53 you average it so that we would have the benefit of being able to say okay on these conditions you know beauty okay it's a three you know 3.4 four or it's a nine, right?
4:11:04 You know, the average so that we're like, okay, seven people collectively ranked this this particular score. And that may not be feasible.
4:11:12 It was just something that I'm looking going to think, hey, I think you can do it. I mean,
4:11:18 if I can add to I think I think the checklists I think are a good idea to give to DPZ to include in the code because there's some stuff on that
4:11:25 checklist that's not currently in our code, but that's obviously stuff we want to see in the code. So I think that checklist needs to go to DPZ and and let
4:11:33 them write because they can write a connectivity index in the form based code that will give that calculation automatically as staff can say this is a
4:11:40 6.4 based on the connectivity index and and that can then take some of the subjectivity out of it. But I I agree
4:11:48 that there's there's a some of this language, the whole desirable that in a in a in a in a quasi judicial that is it
4:11:58 desirable is so hard to judge. So some of this language does need to come out and I think DPS is looking at that that
4:12:04 stuff. But the the what you want in the future this checklist I think absolutely needs to go to them because they can
4:12:11 write code based on what we want to make it that way. In the meantime, we can have a checklist for what's in the code
4:12:19 and then maybe some desirable stuff that could potentially be negotiated depending on the type of case or we could I think if I understand Miss
4:12:27 Hoisington's point as well and some of the concerns about public record that have been brought up if we simply start
4:12:34 I imagine if I was an applicant if it says these are the standards one of them is desirable in order to determine whether this is desirable planning and
4:12:42 zoning and council may consider any one of the following following any one or all of the following standards and and
4:12:49 we could articulate that which then you can have and we can have you know and if anything if we see
4:12:58 something that's away from those standards it allows us to be responsible in our communications with the developer to say hey in this
4:13:06 particular case there's something about yours that's kind of different we didn't see this one coming I care about fill in the blank whatever that is but I think
4:13:13 the things we've talked about have been pretty there's nothing I've heard that doesn't that makes me go hey if this passes this standard that we're talking
4:13:22 about I'm I'm going to be happy with it and I think the developer gets the heads up from the front that oh they're going to ask about how I interact with my
4:13:30 neighborhood they're going to ask about how beautiful this project is going to ask about where I'm putting the trash is it in the front you know is it for
4:13:38 people to see or is it you know they're going to ask these questions about how I engage with my neighbors I better be a good neighbor,
4:13:46 you know. And I think that's when I get people who come to me, like developers who come to me, first thing I say is, "What do your neighbors say?
4:13:54 Better have a barbecue if you want to get this one by me because I want to hear what they have to say." And they'll do it. It's It's amazing if they know up
4:14:02 front. But checklist, by the way. Have you talked to the neighbors?
4:14:06 Exactly. We're going to ask you that question. How many neighbors have you engaged?
4:14:08 I thought I put that on. I'm sorry. you know, we we may not be able to not approve it for that reason, but we can certainly ask them that question and let you know, let's see what their
4:14:17 face says when we give them that question. Yeah. You know,
4:14:20 and then when they come to us, oh, did they not ask you this at planning and zoning? Did staff not ask you this? And you still aren't talking to exactly like we did with the gas station.
4:14:28 They were one of the and we going to try to I'm going try to wrap this up, but they were one of the good provisions in live local law. They
4:14:36 had to they had to meet with the neighborhood and everything and have a community form and everything. Well, I think it could have been a little bit
4:14:44 better put uh because the one they I had to meet with was two miles away from the community that they want to build in your butt. It it met the uh the goal and
4:14:54 the desire of the law. But that's the one good thing in the live local law that was good. Before you can do anything, you have to be good. If we can before we before we break, Mr.
4:15:02 Colby, Mr. Kramer, is there anything that you would have put on your list that we didn't do? I I think we I think we I think we covered a lot. You know, anything that makes a community better.
4:15:09 The the connectivity um issues I I think are are huge. You know, connectivity beyond um traditional um gas, car
4:15:17 transportation, trails, and and all of that stuff. But, um I think we I think we we covered a lot and we we touched on the the civility issue, too. And and I
4:15:26 think there is, you know, there there's a fine line. It's great to be passionate, but I think sometimes um it has crossed over to being abrasive and
4:15:35 rude and and and and I think we just need to stay on the right side of that line.
4:15:40 And I I'm if Mr. W if it's okay with you if I share a little bit our conversation uh after the last PNZ. Um I watch you
4:15:49 PNZ quite a bit because of the comments I get and everything. I do watch it. I didn't, you know, watch I had didn't watch the last one um before I called
4:15:58 Mr. Wah, but first thing he I called him. I said, I he asked me, "Did you see it?" I said, "No, I decided I was going to call you and talk to you before I
4:16:07 watch it." And he right off the bat and said, "By far, it's the best PNZ uh meeting that they've they've had uh since he'd been here, we've had since
4:16:15 we've been here." So, I I just want to say thank you. Of course, I did go back and watch it after later on that evening and everything and I totally agree with
4:16:22 him and everything his assessment and that's the whole thing is not people coming to do business and it goes
4:16:30 back to our session we had today. Uh we need to be respectful of the folks. I know they coming in invading our territory and all this other stuff but
4:16:38 they still asking and they still have to have our permission. I can think we can say no to him in a nice decent way and not walk away with a with a bad reputation of being so nasty here. Yes,
4:16:47 I'm I'm sorry. You know where it went immediately downhill.
4:16:52 That applicant, okay, I'm not the smartest person in this room, but I do listen.
4:16:59 I heard him twice when I sat in there and twice now on committee. that applicant the first first words out of
4:17:07 his mouth. Thank you all. Appreciate your volunteership. Everything is all flowery and wonderful.
4:17:15 Once the questions start,
4:17:18 watch. It's a trigger and he becomes arrogant and condescending. And then the same line, four times I've heard the
4:17:27 same line. You have no choice but to approve this.
4:17:33 Now, I don't know about anybody here. I have 11 tattoos. Not one of them says John is your punching bag. And that as
4:17:42 soon as he said it is when it went downhill because we're all sitting there trying again to get you the information
4:17:52 or making some sort of concession or putting signs on here, but doing something like that. And it just became you could it's it's that same attitude.
4:18:03 You could ask all you want, but your only option is yes. And at that point,
4:18:07 sir, with all due respect, what do you need planning and zoning for? To that point, what do you do?
4:18:13 Because when I have someone come and tell me that, I'm looking to you.
4:18:17 Well, I certainly don't tell judges. You have to grant my motion. You know, I mean,
4:18:23 I don't mean to speak out of ter, but that's exactly what he did that night.
4:18:27 That triggered me. I I will tell you, it's a trigger for me when somebody gives any of us legal advice.
4:18:33 except from our counsel when this gentleman is sitting to my left, right?
4:18:36 It's this is where I'm getting my legal advice from. It's just that simple. How do you want him to handle that?
4:18:44 Because I can appreciate the frustration. Yeah, he has to do this.
4:18:49 I I appreciate the frustration. I know this and I get that too. But then it goes back to like our last section on communication. Uh I think I don't know
4:18:58 if you was here when I was there and I said this thing about Q-tip don't take it personally. You still got to sit there and listen to the listen to what
4:19:05 he's saying. And it's different. And at that point, you you build a wall up and you're not really hearing hear what he do. And I know it can be aggravating.
4:19:13 It's no it's it's when you have an attorney giving legal advice to somebody who's represented by council. That is a sign that is that's legally significant.
4:19:21 Which one was was this?
4:19:22 This is an attorney telling our This was during the shake shack. Sh. Sorry. Shake. Yes. Okay. Right. Right.
4:19:29 So when I have an attorney telling planning and zoning. You have to do this thing. That's legal advice. That sure is.
4:19:36 I want you to nip that in the bud.
4:19:38 Well, we did actually. I did I explained exactly to them to a point, sir.
4:19:44 Yeah. I mean, he he brought up I take that very serious.
4:19:46 You guys did exactly what you could do within your discretion. Another thing on the list because that just reminded me and it was it was the trigger was also
4:19:54 on noise because uh commissioner you brought up the noise and he kept saying that is not part of it and then you found something in the code that said
4:20:02 well wait a minute noise does if it travels outside of the property. That's right.
4:20:08 Then it can be considered that's that's a whole other conversation. Oh, that's that's I remember that. But that was where the noise thing was the was the worst.
4:20:16 But keep in mind keep in mind I'm trying to close this thing up, but keep in mind even though it may upset you, but you know what I do? One of the things I
4:20:23 don't take it personal other thing because I still realize one thing. I'm the one with the vote, not him. Okay? As
4:20:32 I used to say in the military, you can say whatever, but I this pen is very mighty as I used to say in the Air Force. And what I write in that evaluation means a lot. I wrote it down.
4:20:41 Q2 I'm still in control. Well, and that to your point, mayor,
4:20:46 though, that's that's why things don't need to be an argument in in hearings,
4:20:50 you know, because once you've heard what you need to hear. Yeah. They're done. You're done.
4:20:55 Well, I would like to say thank you to all of you all on the planning and zoning. You do not have to take the time that you take to serve our community.
4:21:04 You don't get paid. And I want you to know I appreciate what you all do and you are a great service to our community. And I thank you.
4:21:12 Thank you, ma'am. I still have a question. Yes, sir.
4:21:16 What are our next steps? What is our timeline? I don't want to be here a month from now saying we need a checklist. Like, who's responsible for
4:21:23 developing? Who's how are we going to do this process? Because we have not left here with a time certain of anything
4:21:31 being done. My suggestion is that if you'll allow me to take a stab at writing up what I think the checklist would be,
4:21:39 get it to staff, have them give it to all of you, let's get another set of eyes on it just to make sure that I didn't mistranscribe something and then
4:21:49 does this for guidance need to come to it would. Yeah. I mean,
4:21:54 so then we can get it on the agenda the first week of May for council to say these are guiding principles for applications.
4:22:03 It depends on what you come up with, but it needs to go to council. It would need to go to council.
4:22:07 You have to you have to make sure we everything on the checklist falls in in in rim with our ordinances.
4:22:14 Yeah. Well, we're saying we're defining the word desirable because our ordinance says desirable. Well, what does that mean?
4:22:20 And so we're saying desirable may be any of these things. Yeah. Go ahead.
4:22:26 Mr. off. Um, if we put in writing a document that says guiding principles
4:22:35 and those guiding principles aren't also legal principles,
4:22:44 are we concerned that if and if then a project that comes forward does not get
4:22:51 recommended for approval at PNZ and does not get approved at the council and Those records reflect that those
4:22:59 guiding principles all indicated no for lack of a better word. And again, those
4:23:07 guiding principles weren't the legal principles. What does that do for us as a city because they're not held to those guiding principles? And if they say,
4:23:18 yeah, legally, they're not held to it.
4:23:20 And that's why I think I'm not sure who just said it, but if if they derive from the factors in 101-212D,
4:23:32 in other words, they relate to ingress, egress, transportation,
4:23:38 as long as they legal principles, not guiding principles. They have to derive from that. Yeah.
4:23:43 Because then you can say, well, in the council's consideration of this factor, they looked at this guiding principle. Yeah.
4:23:51 Because anything like take ingress egress. Let's say there's a guiding principle about crosswalks and that relates to ingress egress. Well, that's
4:24:00 okay. That's going to ultimately be legal because it fits within that factor, right?
4:24:05 But if it's something that doesn't fit within the factor, then I would worry. Now, now, and this raises the question,
4:24:12 why not just amend the code? I mean, if we're going to Well, and so question, the second part to my question was going to be why not then just amend the code? Uh, and and I
4:24:22 look at too, I was think I made some notes about even our application process for code enforcement in P&Z. I mean, the application that that we filled out that
4:24:30 seven folks up here and myself and miss uh council member Myers and the mayor when they were on code enforcement as well. Oh, okay. But I think you I know
4:24:39 you I know we both filled out that application. It's a basic it's a it's your name, address, are you a city? No, they obtained it.
4:24:45 Well, but what where I'm going with it is if we really truly want to get at a what is the philosophy that this person
4:24:54 is going to bring to a board or a commission that maybe then we look at things like updating our code, updating our
4:25:03 application so that then we can have that conversation. So when Mr. Mr. Smith or Miss Jones comes before the city
4:25:10 council to apply for a position on one of these boards or commissions, we have that information and we can talk to them
4:25:17 about that and we can talk to them about rather than just say why do you want to serve and kind of be superficial. We can say what is it about code enforcement?
4:25:27 What is it about planning and zoning that you find passionate and and that you feel is your way to serve this
4:25:35 community? and what philosophy do you bring to that? I think that's maybe where we can get into those those ideas
4:25:43 of okay, is this person aligned with what we like to guide our planning and
4:25:49 zoning in a direction, but then they're still applying in decision making the legal principles. Does that make sense?
4:25:58 It does.
4:26:00 So defined desirable in the code with these elements.
4:26:05 May I suggest that we just hand one person and then she'll comprise the list and she'll go with everybody or she'll give it to the lawyer.
4:26:15 I agree with the mayor that has to be not and it's very simple. Nope. Not in there and that's it.
4:26:21 Y and this way we know I mean unless you have a photogenetic memory like if she's not at the meeting I know I'm going to ask her questions.
4:26:31 All right. If I'm not at the meeting, I know one of these six will turn around and ask about dumpsters and the roads, right?
4:26:38 Okay. But seems like we're keep changing the commission a lot lately.
4:26:45 So, how do we feel about if the code needs to be updated because there's I I listen I if I I've been saying that for for the past since I
4:26:53 I just mean on this definition of desirable because I know the whole code is is likely to be addressed but just this one thing that's seems to be the
4:27:00 source of the mis the disconnect. Um, by the way, I'm gonna tell you all to read Desaata,
4:27:07 which is desirable things. I just I have to. Um, but besides that, if I pull this list up and show it to Christian, if he says it's already in the legal standard,
4:27:18 then I don't think we need to make any amendments to the code. Correct. If anything is not in the legal standard,
4:27:23 then we might need to amend that section to add those. Well, you might want to spell it out. Even if it's subsumed within the factor,
4:27:30 you might want to put it explicitly so that they come in there prepared. We're going to get a question on this. Do we want to do that?
4:27:37 I'm okay with doing that if if that's do we have generally. So what we can do is come up with this list, get it on the agenda because that's an ordinance
4:27:46 change. So that's a two reading. So that way we've got May, it'll be the month of May and you you all would have this
4:27:53 ready for your June meeting and the first meeting in May. If there's anything that needs to be edited, it's really important you all take a look at
4:28:01 it and make sure it's properly documented because we'll read it the first reading and then the second reading would be the second week of May or the second meeting in May.
4:28:10 This work for everybody? You like this? Cool. Thanks for asking that question. Okay. Never mind.
4:28:17 I don't want to be too process.
4:28:20 The process not not really ready to go home. But uh anyway, let me clear something up. When I said I did not fill out an application
4:28:28 back in my days to go on the PNZ and the code enforcement, all I had to do is write a letter requesting to go. We didn't have application, okay? Like you
4:28:36 all do now. That So don't think they just threw me on it, okay? I I had to submit a letter, but then we came up with the uh application a couple years
4:28:45 ago. what about four or five years to go.
4:28:48 So just to clear that up but any anything else for the good I think we're good if not I'mma call this meeting a journ